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Old 1st Mar 2019, 17:06
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A couple of clarifications in the case for and against GLA-SEN.

Having flown on the BE/STK service 2.5 returns including at short notice, I can confirm fares were far from high and loads on all five flights were quite low. I concur that getting 40 people on an E195 doesn’t mean you’ll get 40 on a E145.

Re post 370, Essex is many things but it’s not a poor catchment. Quite the opposite. There will certainly be some takers for a reliable, frequent higher end service and the same will apply for the ABZ route.
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Old 1st Mar 2019, 17:06
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If it was only £30 then that explains why the route was pulled. Even Ryanair's costs are around £50 per pax.
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Old 1st Mar 2019, 17:26
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I should also point out that Stobart was a jet service. It was scheduled on the E195 but with their reliability troubles the route was often subbed to an ATR. That should in itself say something about loads.
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Old 1st Mar 2019, 17:32
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Originally Posted by AirportPlanner1
A couple of clarifications in the case for and against GLA-SEN.

Having flown on the BE/STK service 2.5 returns including at short notice, I can confirm fares were far from high and loads on all five flights were quite low. I concur that getting 40 people on an E195 doesn’t mean you’ll get 40 on a E145.

Re post 370, Essex is many things but it’s not a poor catchment. Quite the opposite. There will certainly be some takers for a reliable, frequent higher end service and the same will apply for the ABZ route.
There almost no “high end” routes in UK domestic. Going to Southend from Scotland, fly easyJet to Stansted at a fraction of “high end” and get the bus from there.
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Old 1st Mar 2019, 17:53
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The Loganair GLA-SEN-GLA service will not be a like-for-like replacement for the Stobart/Flybe service. Low frequency always prevented the Stobart service from being very useful for business travellers in either direction whereas 3 x daily on Loganair ticks that box and should result in a higher yield.
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Old 1st Mar 2019, 17:55
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I personally think that £39.99 with a case, pick ur seat at check in and onboard snack is pretty decent and with only 50 seater s you’re off the plane in no time. They have a good product we will just need to see if it pays off.
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Old 1st Mar 2019, 20:05
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Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot

There almost no “high end” routes in UK domestic. Going to Southend from Scotland, fly easyJet to Stansted at a fraction of “high end” and get the bus from there.
Its not really true to say high end domestic doesn’t exist, there’s certainly a market or BA wouldn’t offer Club or charge a fortune on certain flights. There’s also plenty of “premium” routes, pretty much anything involving Eastern fits into that bracket .

Also its all well and good telling people to go to Stansted, but at a bare minimum EZY will want about £45 return but normally it’s going to be more like £50-55 if you book at least a couple of weeks ahead, risk having your handluggage taken off you and sit where they put you. Add on your £30 bus and Logan with luggage, a drink and a tea cake thrown in looks pretty damn good.

Also on some days the EZY schedule from STN isn’t that useful, trust me I used it twice in February.
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Old 1st Mar 2019, 20:51
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Originally Posted by AirportPlanner1
Its not really true to say high end domestic doesn’t exist, there’s certainly a market or BA wouldn’t offer Club or charge a fortune on certain flights. There’s also plenty of “premium” routes, pretty much anything involving Eastern fits into that bracket .
Also its all well and good telling people to go to Stansted, but at a bare minimum EZY will want about £45 return but normally it’s going to be more like £50-55 if you book at least a couple of weeks ahead, risk having your handluggage taken off you and sit where they put you. Add on your £30 bus and Logan with luggage, a drink and a tea cake thrown in looks pretty damn good.
Also on some days the EZY schedule from STN isn’t that useful, trust me I used it twice in February.
BA *just about* make high end domestic work on EDI-LON but not even sure if I would argue the Glasgow Shuttle fits that bill nowadays. There are not plenty of premium routes, go count the ones you'd call money makers, you know, at flybe
Flybe are on their knees partly due to the weakness of UK domestic aviation, Eastern continue to contract. The only real money makers are high volume routes, low volume high value is barely seen outside of er....Loganair! You can't seriously point at the loss making car crash that is the flybe / Eastern business model and say that's the way to go. Added to the fact that the company flying the very same aircraft last week just went bust because low volume regional flying is a bottomless pit of losses for most operators.

My actual concern here is I remember what happened last time Loganair did this and it didn't end well.

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Old 2nd Mar 2019, 00:30
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flight times and a question

I was wondering if someone would please answer a couple of questions for me, having read various posts , following the new 'Stornoway- Sen ' route, and that perhaps, Sumburgh or even Kirkwall as I saw was suggested on either this or another forum .

Anyway ref Stornoway, what are the flight times likely to be , it must be easily over an hour .

And can Sumburgh , which would be the next ' logical route ' , especially with all that Oil business , plus the positive effects of inbound tourism. could the Runway at Sumburgh support an ERJ45 ?

. Stornoway is clearly long enough , as Ryanair if anyone recalls tried to get a base there .I read that it was stopped by the Airport?.

Anyway I ask about Sumburgh as obviously it could handle an Embraer 170 ( could it handle a 175 ( I thought Stobart have them ).
Just I was always under the impression the E13/45 was not as runway effecient as the new ' E Jets '.
Also is the direct link from Manchester to Stornoway still running .

It would be a real boost to the local economy if it was .
I'm surprised they don't get more ' inbound flights , ( tourist flights - that offer tickets to locals).
I believe this is common in Eire and NQY And Exeter ?.

Sorry for the different questions but not being in the know about the subject, but having spent a lot of time on Lewis , this could be the start of more to come .
As not everyone relishes spending an age driving to ullapool and suffering the crossing of the Minch , no matter how good the new Calmac vessel is !.

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Old 2nd Mar 2019, 00:44
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Originally Posted by EGPO
I was wondering if someone would please answer a couple of questions for me, having read various posts , following the new 'Stornoway- Sen ' route, and that perhaps, Sumburgh or even Kirkwall as I saw was suggested on either this or another forum .

Anyway ref Stornoway, what are the flight times likely to be , it must be easily over an hour .

And can Sumburgh , which would be the next ' logical route ' , especially with all that Oil business , plus the positive effects of inbound tourism. could the Runway at Sumburgh support an ERJ45 ?

. Stornoway is clearly long enough , as Ryanair if anyone recalls tried to get a base there .I read that it was stopped by the Airport?.

Anyway I ask about Sumburgh as obviously it could handle an Embraer 170 ( could it handle a 175 ( I thought Stobart have them ).
Just I was always under the impression the E13/45 was not as runway effecient as the new ' E Jets '.
Also is the direct link from Manchester to Stornoway still running .

It would be a real boost to the local economy if it was .
I'm surprised they don't get more ' inbound flights , ( tourist flights - that offer tickets to locals).
I believe this is common in Eire and NQY And Exeter ?.

Sorry for the different questions but not being in the know about the subject, but having spent a lot of time on Lewis , this could be the start of more to come .
As not everyone relishes spending an age driving to ullapool and suffering the crossing of the Minch , no matter how good the new Calmac vessel is !.
A few things on that... Stobart got 3 E195s from Flybe, not 175s.

The ER3/4s that Loganair have, have had their reverses deactivated from what I’ve heard due to the crews not being trained in them because of the low concentration of ER3/4s globally that have then anyway. Therefore I don’t believe they could operate there but I could be completely wrong there.
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Old 2nd Mar 2019, 01:54
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Originally Posted by Fly757X


A few things on that... Stobart got 3 E195s from Flybe, not 175s.

The ER3/4s that Loganair have, have had their reverses deactivated from what I’ve heard due to the crews not being trained in them because of the low concentration of ER3/4s globally that have then anyway. Therefore I don’t believe they could operate there but I could be completely wrong there.
Thank you, very interesting , is that even safe to have an aircraft land minus reversers .
I'm no pilot but what of the Scenario, especially on Lewis with a wetter climate.
Plus as id said , I'm pretty sure it was mentioned about Sumburgh ( I'm assuming a 190/5 could get in there , as I was under the impression like many aircraft designs there is ac' short field package ' not to mention , Vagar was taking 737's before the extended runway. ( YouTube video for proof somewhere).

Anyway back to topic no reversers and what if the runway was soaked and high winds.
Surley just brakes alone would potentially cause a skid? Unless it's grooved and I can't see it being grooved at Stornoway as I think ( would have to check , but pretty sure it's as long if not longer than the likes of HUY, which takes 757's. Indeed years back a German 747 had to land there in an emergency .

But even so to disable a major safety system does not sound right.






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Old 2nd Mar 2019, 09:07
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It’s perfectly safe to land without thrust reversers if the runway is suitable. Some aircraft do not have them e.g. BAe 146 / RJ85/100 and they have pretty good short field performance (landing at London City even in the rain). They won’t “skid” as they have anti skid braking systems like ABS on a car.
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Old 2nd Mar 2019, 09:29
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Are you sure there was a B747 in HUY as I don`t think runway is anywhere near long enough
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Old 2nd Mar 2019, 10:10
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Originally Posted by EGPO
Thank you, very interesting , is that even safe to have an aircraft land minus reversers .
I'm no pilot but what of the Scenario, especially on Lewis with a wetter climate.
Plus as id said , I'm pretty sure it was mentioned about Sumburgh ( I'm assuming a 190/5 could get in there , as I was under the impression like many aircraft designs there is ac' short field package ' not to mention , Vagar was taking 737's before the extended runway. ( YouTube video for proof somewhere).

Anyway back to topic no reversers and what if the runway was soaked and high winds.
Surley just brakes alone would potentially cause a skid? Unless it's grooved and I can't see it being grooved at Stornoway as I think ( would have to check , but pretty sure it's as long if not longer than the likes of HUY, which takes 757's. Indeed years back a German 747 had to land there in an emergency .

But even so to disable a major safety system does not sound right.
When the Loganair CEO visited Shetland last year he told them that the ERJ's could not operate from Sumburgh and they would be getting ATR's to replace the Saab's. It looks like the runways are too short, I think especially for take off's. There are no leading edge slats on the wings.
SYY used to be 7595ft on 18-36 but this seems to have been shortened to around 7200ft. I remember reading about the large aircraft doing the emergency landing. I don't think it was a 747 but they had to get the passengers off with the ambulift. It may have been a 767, https://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-1796.html
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Old 2nd Mar 2019, 10:46
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And you certainly don't want to run off the end of the Sumburgh runway, as both ends were extended into the sea.
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Old 2nd Mar 2019, 11:02
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Originally Posted by EGPO
Anyway back to topic no reversers and what if the runway was soaked and high winds.
Surley just brakes alone would potentially cause a skid? Unless it's grooved and I can't see it being grooved at Stornoway
Both Stornaway and Sumburgh have grooved runways.
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Old 2nd Mar 2019, 11:46
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Originally Posted by chaps1954
Are you sure there was a B747 in HUY as I don`t think runway is anywhere near long enough
Sorry I meant Stornoway, it was a medical emergency .
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Old 2nd Mar 2019, 12:05
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Leaving issues such as crosswind limits etc. aside: KOI and LSI have 1.428m and 1.500m runways. LCY has 1.508m and has seen ER3 ops by Jetmagic and Luxair. So just looking at the runway length, it should be doable for sn ER3 .For the ERJ145EP, takeoff field length TOW for 400nm, full PAX, ISA, SL is 1.410m, for MTOW it is 2.000m+. So it really depends what you are looking for, how much wear and tear you are willing to accept etc. etc., but generally it does not look as if an ER4 could be operated from LSI/KOI in an useful way.
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Old 2nd Mar 2019, 12:24
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Originally Posted by inOban
And you certainly don't want to run off the end of the Sumburgh runway, as both ends were extended into the sea.
Sadly that has already happened, 1978 I think. At least three work colleagues were killed among others. A Dan Air HS748 that had some modifications done to it by previous owners in South America.
A few weeks later we were taking off for Glasgow late in the evening and hit a gull as we were about ready to lift off, I think it was on the other runway, but we managed to stop. Luckily the Aberdeen charter had not left and I think we all got on it. We missed the train home from there, but no one was complaining. They got us on the BA flight in the morning.
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Old 2nd Mar 2019, 12:56
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The Stornoway div was a Pan Am A310 from memory.
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