Loganair-2

[virginblue]

Quote by J. Hinkles in US Airways mag sounds as if the ATR42 is a done deal.

[chuboy]

Originally Posted by Fly757X

The ATR42-300s are indeed rocks but the -600 that Stobart recently got to replace EHH & CBK wouldn't even attempt 25+ kts was diverting regularly during its first few weeks at CFN due to 22kts and upwards winds. The old-300s seemed to give it a go in +30 and make it as I always waited in anticipation for them diverting to LDY so I could get pictures of them but that rarely happened, sorry for the anecdote but it would seem ATR have tougher limits of the -600s

Demonstrated crosswind for both versions of the 42 are the same (45 kts), my guess is the company limit in the SOPs was reduced after CBK went off the side of the runway at CFN on one of its famously crosswindy days.

[Fly757X]

Originally Posted by chuboy

Demonstrated crosswind for both versions of the 42 are the same (45 kts), my guess is the company limit in the SOPs was reduced after CBK went off the side of the runway at CFN on one of its famously crosswindy days.

I never even heard of CBK going off at CFN. Would align well, those two sheds are great warriors but that’s a Stobart topic.

[tibbs87]

Fleet replacement

Although I agree the ATR42 is a good replacement, the 48/50 seater capacity may not be completely filled by passengers, thus a 30 seater would probably be more economical? I suggest that they purchase new Embraer 120 Brasilia's which are still in production if the need arises, they are pretty sturdy aircraft and proven domestic aircraft which would be similar to the current Saab 340 fleet. Another option is the new Viking DHC-5NG Buffalo utility aircraft that have a capacity of 30-40 and are versatile for cargo operations too, not to mention the extraordinary short field performance. Another option for smaller aircraft could be the new 19 seater Cessna 408 SkyCourier for routes to say Campbeltown, Tiree, Benbecula etc?

[Fly757X]

Originally Posted by tibbs87

Although I agree the ATR42 is a good replacement, the 48/50 seater capacity may not be completely filled by passengers, thus a 30 seater would probably be more economical? I suggest that they purchase new Embraer 120 Brasilia's which are still in production if the need arises, they are pretty sturdy aircraft and proven domestic aircraft which would be similar to the current Saab 340 fleet. Another option is the new Viking DHC-5NG Buffalo utility aircraft that have a capacity of 30-40 and are versatile for cargo operations too, not to mention the extraordinary short field performance. Another option for smaller aircraft could be the new 19 seater Cessna 408 SkyCourier for routes to say Campbeltown, Tiree, Benbecula etc?

The SB34s are for not replacement in the short term and most (if not all) have received new cabins in the past 3 years. It's more for the SB20s which are penned to go in the next 2-3 years.

[virginblue]

To quote from the above mentioned article:

"The Managing Director aspires to start standardizing the fleet in 2019, with the ATR42 as the selected type to serve all routes besides the islands operations. He is especially concerned about the high costs to keep the Saab 2000s running. "Their maintenance costs are horrific", he said."

I think we can put all speculations about Embraer 120s, DHC8-Q300s, DHC5s etc. to rest.

[tibbs87]

Originally Posted by virginblue

To quote from the above mentioned article:


I think we can put all speculations about Embraer 120s, DHC8-Q300s, DHC5s etc. to rest.

I understand that they want to replace the Saab 2000's with ATR varients, but wasn't there something in the Saab press recently about the withdrawal of aviation support for the Saab 340/2000 by Saab itself? Wouldn't that implicate a greater future cost if it was outsourced to a 3rd party or no party, if none took it up? I think brand new EMB-120's would be totally sustainable, something that TangoAlphad didn't explore out of the options I discussed

[virginblue]

The article I refered to also has a quote that the Saab 2000s are so expensive to maintian that they do not provide any cost advantage over the Saab 340s despite being 1/3 larger. Plus they are in a weight category that makes them rather expensive for a 50 seater when it comes to charges, fees etc. Add to that that their superior speed isn't really needed on Loganair's network. So bring on those ATRs - it will also give Loganair the option to add a few ATR72 depending on future expansion plans.

Islanders are to stay according to the article, Loganair looked at alternatives like the Quest Kodiak or the Caravan, but they lack the performance required around the Orkneys.

[NorthSouth]

Originally Posted by virginblue

Islanders are to stay according to the article, Loganair looked at alternatives like the Quest Kodiak or the Caravan, but they lack the performance required around the Orkneys.

And the places to land if it all goes quiet up the front while halfway across the water to Stronsay at 300ft

[Albert Hall]

I can't think why you would ever be flying at 300ft regardless of how many engines you have. 500 is the transit minimum, I believe.

[VickersVicount]

What do we make of Loganairs suggestion of an (BMI) Embraer hub at GLA serving European destinations?
Didnt they try that many years ago (with 146's and 1-11s), equally inefficient then?
A very good local brand name though (so long as it doesnt divert from what they're good at)
Not exactly first flurry into Europe given theyre currently trying Bergen...
Interesting times, a BRU route ex GLA with reasonable fares and frequency and suitable Star codeshare might work, particularly if the Embraers can still make money. CPH would be the other one I could think of and maybe Paris. FRA unlikely now against LH but maybe take over its half hearted Munich or DUS. MAD a bit of a trek in a tiny Emb
http://shorturl.at/orFNR

[mwm991]

Sounds promising. Would be great for Scotland to have its own legacy airline.

[goldeneye]

Link does not seem to work, but story is - https://www.scotsman.com/news/transp...utes-1-4759063

[ifu05596]

Hope it will be in tartan and not bmi colours!

[cumbrianboy]

@fly757x

The ATR42-600 has exactly the same cross wind limits as the ATR42-320 and this has not changed in recent times at CFN.

the AT46 regularly lands in cross winds of uptown 35kt.

The Reason they divert from CFN at >25kt is because the runway is 1,100m long and only 30m wide and with a non precision approach on both ends (with one being a dodgy NDB) it has short and narrow limitations which are standard ...

[01475]

European routes from Glasgow sound interesting. But is Glasgow ready for Bmi style fares to the continent, likely in competition with cheaper fares from Edinburgh?

Also, and tragically, the better marketing partner for such routes would probably have been flyBe :-(

[Alteagod]

It does seem a big ask especially with all the competition. The fares will be key to this working but at least they are trying

[Fly757X]

Originally Posted by cumbrianboy

@fly757x

The ATR42-600 has exactly the same cross wind limits as the ATR42-320 and this has not changed in recent times at CFN.

the AT46 regularly lands in cross winds of uptown 35kt.

The Reason they divert from CFN at >25kt is because the runway is 1,100m long and only 30m wide and with a non precision approach on both ends (with one being a dodgy NDB) it has short and narrow limitations which are standard ...

Cheers mate, I was just comparing the older -300s to the -600s taking into consideration the narrower runway at CFN using what I had seen as a spotter from experience. They also have a Localiser for 21 at CFN btw.

[mwm991]

Originally Posted by 01475

European routes from Glasgow sound interesting. But is Glasgow ready for Bmi style fares to the continent, likely in competition with cheaper fares from Edinburgh?

Also, and tragically, the better marketing partner for such routes would probably have been flyBe :-(

If they have regular service, codeshare hub access and it can make Glasgow as a hub of sorts itself, then maybe.

I'd have more concern about these routes as standalone P2P stuff.

[4567]

I’d imagine the links with Lufthansa and star alliance through BMI will be used as much as possible. As has been said the fares will be key but BRS has managed to sustain BMI well so hopefully the same can be done for Loganair.