Glasgow-3

[nivsy]

Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot

As yeehaw22 said, I clearly meant from the '90s and the comparison from when I was growing up. The airport, both EDI and GLA are *much* busier, but the focus and gravity has moved east. The commercial landscape has changed somewhat since then.

Perhaps you should calm down, take your own advice and think before you post. As for me with my "usual anti-Glasgow diatribe", that's utter rubbish, I have supported GLA all my life, I was a local, however I try and be honest in my analysis and take the fan-boy goggles off as frankly they don't help anyone.

I quite agree. Nice post. GLA used to be my home airport many years ago. Passing through GLA these days usually depresses me I am afraid. We have all witnessed efforts from some airlines to make GLA work for them. Often on a number of occasions and times. It seems to fail.

[nef]

Originally Posted by nivsy

I quite agree. Nice post. GLA used to be my home airport many years ago. Passing through GLA these days usually depresses me I am afraid. We have all witnessed efforts from some airlines to make GLA work for them. Often on a number of occasions and times. It seems to fail.

Hmm......

- GLA-MUC is only suspended for winter, it's still here for S20 at 5 weekly airbus. That's still a deal more MUC service than GLA has had anytime in recent history - and more MUC service than most other UK regionals. Moreover, much of this summer demand is stimulated by inbound visitors - the ones some posters seem to think are virtually non-existant at GLA.......
- The FRA route has not failed, it has reduced in frequency by ONE day from daily to 6 weekly. For a winter season where we may be in a no deal Brexit situation that may well be prudent. Jan and Feb were somewhat quiet (as is the case all over Europe), but loads the rest of the year appeared reasonable and not wildly different to EDI.
- Edinburgh's "multiple daily" flights are not that multiple - AFAIK AF CDG is down to 2 daily and FRA was only 12 weekly in winter, hardly a stellar frequency.
- The last time LH flew their own metal to GLA was iirc over 20 years ago. I'm not sure how stuff that happened decades ago provides a predictor for now. If we take ZRH for instance, that's "failed" twice in the last 20 or so years from EDI on Crossair and bmi, so presumably the current Edelweiss service is destined to fail too? Of course not. What happened decades ago is little if any guide for now.
​​​​​​- Every time I see this kind of discussion come up I see the same lazy and incorrect stereotypes peddled here around tourism in Glasgow - "No inbound demand to Glasgow", "No tourists come to Glasgow", "All outbound/bucket and spade", blablabla. FACT: Glasgow is pretty consistently in the top 5 or 6 most visited destinations in the UK by foreign visitors. FACT: Glasgow is pretty consistently 3rd in the UK for foreign visitors with a "holiday" visit purpose. FACT: In 2017 (the most recent year with full stats) foreign visits to Glasgow were up 20% and N American visits up 40%, to make Glasgow the 3rd most visited UK city by Americans only behind London and Edinburgh.
​​​​(https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-sc...-west-45018809, visit Britain stats) All this is before we consider pax who might use the airport as an access point to other popular areas like the W Highlands etc. I'm not saying Glasgow has as many tourists as Edinburgh, it clearly doesn't, but it does have markedly more inbound demand than is regularly suggested on here. Imo if there are not enough inbound pax using the airport the blame lies as much, if not more, with the airport and airlines rather than with the underlying market.

Finally, S1E - the other posters comments were over the top and uneccssary - but, with all due respect, as a poster who has posted here, like yourself, for many years, I'm sorry to say that on more than one occasion over the years I've felt your posts to imply a dismissive and sometimes disparaging view of the city of Glasgow and the wider west of Scotland, all too often trading on stereotypes of the region - your #thatlldaeme hash tag being a case in point. Perhaps you don't intend this, but I'm afraid that's how you come across on occasion.

You can of course post whatever you wish.........

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Originally Posted by nef

- The last time LH flew their own metal to GLA was iirc over 20 years ago. I'm not sure how stuff that happened decades ago provides a predictor for now. If we take ZRH for instance, that's "failed" twice in the last 20 or so years from EDI on Crossair and bmi, so presumably the current Edelweiss service is destined to fail too? Of course not. What happened decades ago is little if any guide for now.
​​​​​​- Every time I see this kind of discussion come up I see the same lazy and incorrect stereotypes peddled here around tourism in Glasgow - "No inbound demand to Glasgow", "No tourists come to Glasgow", "All outbound/bucket and spade", blablabla. FACT: Glasgow is pretty consistently in the top 5 or 6 most visited destinations in the UK by foreign visitors. FACT: Glasgow is pretty consistently 3rd in the UK for foreign visitors with a "holiday" visit purpose. FACT: In 2017 (the most recent year with full stats) foreign visits to Glasgow were up 20% and N American visits up 40%, to make Glasgow the 3rd most visited UK city by Americans only behind London and Edinburgh.
​​​​(https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-sc...-west-45018809, visit Britain stats) All this is before we consider pax who might use the airport as an access point to other popular areas like the W Highlands etc. I'm not saying Glasgow has as many tourists as Edinburgh, it clearly doesn't, but it does have markedly more inbound demand than is regularly suggested on here. Imo if there are not enough inbound pax using the airport the blame lies as much, if not more, with the airport and airlines rather than with the underlying market.

Finally, S1E - the other posters comments were over the top and uneccssary - but, with all due respect, as a poster who has posted here, like yourself, for many years, I'm sorry to say that on more than one occasion over the years I've felt your posts to imply a dismissive and sometimes disparaging view of the city of Glasgow and the wider west of Scotland, all too often trading on stereotypes of the region - your #thatlldaeme hash tag being a case in point. Perhaps you don't intend this, but I'm afraid that's how you come across on occasion.

You can of course post whatever you wish.........

I live in London nowadays so when I see GLA now I see it from a distance and perspective that will differ from someone who fights the corner locally. Looking back (home) I would say that too many Scots lack aspiration, don't like change, and believe they're "pure dead brilliant" or "the best wee country in the world". Travelling wider than younger me and having seen a fair few wee countries, I am not sure I agree. I have never suggested Glasgow had no inbound tourism, that's a classic straw man. What is very evident is that EDI growth was intentionally constrained at a group level by Scottish Airports who intended GLA to be Scotland's flagship airport.
However open competition has led to further market fragmentation with growth in long haul firmly in the East alongside connectivity to major airlines.

GLA remains pretty much as it was physically in 1994, aside from Gate 30 having more airbridges and a lounge added to the old International Pier. Loganair demolished one hangar and built another whereas Bond is net new. Now compare that with EDI or MAN in the same period. GLA has relatively under-performed against a booming UK aviation market.

[nighthawk117]

Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot

What is very evident is that EDI growth was intentionally constrained at a group level by Scottish Airports who intended GLA to be Scotland's flagship airport.
However open competition has led to further market fragmentation with growth in long haul firmly in the East alongside connectivity to major airlines.

I think this is a bit of a simplistic view of what's been happening over the years. There have been two other very important changes in the market over the years that have contributed to the shift:

1) Devolution - Re-instating the Scottish parliament.

Edinburgh was always been seen as Scotland's secondary city, playing second fiddle to Glasgow due to it's size. With the reinstatement of the parliament, Edinburgh got it's voice back, and it's international profile increased noticeably. This lead to a boost in both tourism and business in the city, driving increased demand.

2) Low Cost Revolution

Glasgow was traditionally the holiday gateway for Scots, and most major tour operators based their aircraft solely in Glasgow. The population of Edinburgh largely accepted that if they wanted to take a break in Spain etc., then they would need to travel from Glasgow. Flights from Edinburgh were almost non existent. That all changed with the low cost revolution. The low cost airlines were quick to spot the market in Edinburgh, and based their aircraft there before they did in Glasgow. Think FlyGlobespan, later to be replaced by Jet2. Easyjet and Ryanair were quick to enter the market here too. As the traditional charter carriers began to struggle and cut capacity, only then did they move in to Glasgow to take them on there.

Now I do believe there was a bit of a categorisation policy in play, but I don't think it had as big an affect as is stated. It certainly benefited the charter carriers to operate from a single base and encourage Edinburgh passengers to travel through to Glasgow to take flights. If there was a policy in place, I don't think they would have taken much persuading to follow it. As an example, look how quick they were to complain about being forced to use PIK for long haul flights. There was no legal challenge over being forced to use GLA over EDI for sunshine destinations.

BAA invested in the longhaul facilities in GLA at the expense of EDI, and airlines simply went were the facilities were.

Lets not forget Continental were operating in to EDI before the BAA ownership monopoly was broken up. The surge in low cost airlines and decline in package tour operators was also well underway before then too.

[nivsy]

So what have we established...not.much really except that while Glasgow as a city seems to attract a large number of tourists from.north America according to the stats the airport fails to bring them in. MAN as an example has many more flights to North America. So it's just not the tourists for there. Are many then jumping in cars and heading north? How about business? Evidence would show catchment area of MAN (obviously) means greater use so again with better cross pond flights. Then EDI seems to balance Scotland's needs perhaps with tourists and business from and to states side. GLA has token gestures. indeed it maybe the failings of the airport operator or just a fact that GLA cannot sustain loads. Don't despair it still has a seasonal charter with 747 to disney!! 🙈 a right good bucket and spade flight! It's a shame that GLA cannot hold European schedules. While it has been explained on the forum it's been done before and withdrawn the counter seems to have been that was on the past and does not reflect current market. Well I am not so sure. SAS never returned. A seasonal LH to MUC is not something to be proud of really. Is it? Brussels international from GLA? I suspect not. It was tried in the past. It's ok maybe GLA business just prefer like tourists the many flights to London so they can connect to frequent euros destinations. It's not per se a dig at GLA it's just observations that the airport appears to serve a market that is perhaps not quite a versatile as EDI now. Ido question just what the airport is itself doing to encourage. Not it's finest moment the dispute with RYR and consequential action which certainly reduced some services. I suspect all airlines take note.

[jensdad]

Reading this thread with interest here in Newcastle. There do seem to be similarities between GLA and NCL in that airlines struggle to make capital cities routes stick - NCL have in the last year or so lost Copenhagen, Madrid and Warsaw - and what some might see as an over-reliance on bucket & spade routes (nothing wrong with that, although one or two people on the NCL thread have occasionally mildly berated the population of NE England for wanting to lie on a beach for a week rather than walking round the Prado).

Anyway, I'm rambling. I see Prestwick is up for sale. My initial reaction is that it will end up closing as a commercial airport. Is GLA well placed to take on the cargo traffic that currently goes through PIK (Cargolux, Air France, Cargo Logic)?

[A350Saltire]

There is a very aggressive and competent management team at EDI whose shackles have been loosened since EDI was sold off. I wouldn’t underestimate their influence either.

The management teams at GLA have never come across as aggressive and hungry for new business in comparison IMHO.

[nef]

Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot

I live in London nowadays so when I see GLA now I see it from a distance and perspective that will differ from someone who fights the corner locally. Looking back (home) I would say that too many Scots lack aspiration, don't like change, and believe they're "pure dead brilliant" or "the best wee country in the world".

Afaik these phrases have been deleted from official use for many years. Perhaps your experience is different, but I've pretty much never heard ordinary people using them, particularly the latter.

If I had to cite what I see as a collective failing in Scotland it would be a lack of self esteem - it's interesting that this would appear to be the polar opposite of your impression of people believing they're "pure dead brilliant". I must stress I'm not saying either impression is wrong or right - merely that the difference is interesting.

Finally, surely an integral part of aspiration is confidence, self promotion and talking oneself up? As such, I'm not sure how Scotland can be more aspirational without indulging in the latter (albeit hopefully somewhat more eloquently than previously!). "Scotland - We're not nearly as rich as Norway", probably isn't going to cut any ice.:-)

Anyway, this is deviating from aviation somewhat......

Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot

I have never suggested Glasgow had no inbound tourism, that's a classic straw man.

And you're taking what I said as literally as possible in order to create that straw man.

Notwithstanding that, tbh the impression I've taken over the years from your posts on this matter is that you think that foreign inbound tourism to Glasgow is negligible and the city's tourism offering and appeal is similarly severely limited (and compared to london or Paris it is, but of course Glasgow is not really competing with these places, but instead the likes of Bristol, Liverpool, Hamburg, Rotterdam etc).
​
Obviously I've misunderstood you on this, so I'd be happy to be corrected and hear your thoughts on the matter.

Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot

GLA has relatively under-performed against a booming UK aviation market.

I'd certainly agree with that.

I think many reasons have been put forward here and the reality is that what's happened at GLA is a combination of a little bit of each. However imo the break up of the BAA hold on GLA and EDI is the main one.

There may have been some categorisation, but I don't believe it ran right up to the sale or anytime near - let's lemember that DL ran (failed) EDI-ATL and JFK services long before then. Afaik in 2004/5 both US and EK were offered EDI, but chose GLA.

I'd suggest simply that the sale process has worked out very well for EDI and it was quickly delivered into the hands of an ambitious, well financed operator with a clear strategic vision. Meanwhile, GLA was first left with a LHR focussed BAA and then transferred to an organisation that is arguably to some extent a BAA spin out, an organisation with little in the way of new thinking, aspiration (that word again!), or strategy for growing the airport. As such it has struggled as EDI has grown and EDI's owners have cottoned onto this to target as many of GLA's pax as possible.

This isn't to say that if GLA had ended up with different owners it would be bigger than EDI, but I do suspect it would be doing a good bit better than it is now.

[willy wombat]

I can't resist putting my 10 pence worth in now. I am also someone for whom GLA was home airport for many years but now live in S E England and, when I visit Scotland, now normally fly into EDI as that is where the remainder of my family live. I think the geographical locations of the two airports is also very important. For an EDI passenger to use GLA they have to go right past or through Glasgow city centre whereas a GLA pax can reach EDI without going past or through Edinburgh. If EDI was located, for example, South East of Edinburgh I think its ability to draw pax from the West of Scotland would be much more limited. While I have complained on here many times about the facilities at EDI, you have to admit it has a real buzz about it whereas last time I travelled through GLA I found it downright depressing. The "old international" pier (that EasyJet use) doesn't look like it has seen paint in a decade (but if it has been done in the last few months I apologise). However recent remarks by Mr Dewar at EDI about the difficulty attracting and retaining traffic does lead you to think that a fair chunk of EDI's growth has maybe been "bought".

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Notwithstanding that, tbh the impression I've taken over the years from your posts on this matter is that you think that foreign inbound tourism to Glasgow is negligible and the city's tourism offering and appeal is similarly severely limited (and compared to london or Paris it is, but of course Glasgow is not really competing with these places, but instead the likes of Bristol, Liverpool, Hamburg, Rotterdam etc).
​

I lived in Glasgow for a good few years, and was a huge fan at the time, of course since then I had my eyes opened to a bigger world and more effective ways of doing things. My "That'll dae me" reference was perhaps cheeky but a fair desciption of too many people who aren't driven to get on, the difference in the SE of England is enormous in that attitude, but money and talent attract money and talent in a classic virtuous circle. I wish both GLA and EDI well, even PIK could be a nice little winner if they closed the terminal IMHO. All politics is local which is why Glasgow City Council built at Abbotsinch when Renfrew closed rather than use Prestwick.
A central Scotland Airport is a fine idea, whose time will never come !

[nivsy]

I must say a central airport for Scotland would still be wonderful. It fits with the model of countries perhaps of the same size and could represent Scotland favourably in the aviation scene. There are many examples of new eco friendly airports being built throughout the world. It can create jobs in infrastructure and be the backbone for Scotland to develop and take away counter competitive activity between GLA and EDI. But we know it will never happen....

[LFT]

Originally Posted by nef

Finally, S1E - the other posters comments were over the top and uneccssary - but, with all due respect, as a poster who has posted here, like yourself, for many years, I'm sorry to say that on more than one occasion over the years I've felt your posts to imply a dismissive and sometimes disparaging view of the city of Glasgow and the wider west of Scotland, all too often trading on stereotypes of the region - your #thatlldaeme hash tag being a case in point. Perhaps you don't intend this, but I'm afraid that's how you come across on occasion.

Frequently I'd say, but anyhow, I reckon he/she is out of touch with what's going on up here, but here's hoping that DLH can make the FRA (and MUC) link(s) work and that other airlines can see the advantages of operating to a west Scotland airport rather than flock like sheep to Edinburgh, 3, or 4 is it, airlines operating from Edinburgh to/from Copenhagen, why?

[A350Saltire]

Originally Posted by LFT

Frequently I'd say, but anyhow, I reckon he/she is out of touch with what's going on up here, but here's hoping that DLH can make the FRA (and MUC) link(s) work and that other airlines can see the advantages of operating to a west Scotland airport rather than flock like sheep to Edinburgh, 3, or 4 is it, airlines operating from Edinburgh to/from Copenhagen, why?

They can make more money at EDI year round?

[LFT]

Originally Posted by A350Saltire

They can make more money at EDI year round?

Maybe, you have the yields I'm assuming? If so, can you share? Thanks.

[A350Saltire]

Originally Posted by LFT

Maybe, you have the yields I'm assuming? If so, can you share? Thanks.

No! It was a question, hence the ?

However I am sure if they could make more money at GLA they would be operating flights there already.

[Bagheera]

3 Copenhagen flights out of Edinburgh yesterday

Norwegian 178 in 186 out load factor 98%
EasyJet 152 in 154 out load factor 98%
Ryanair 183 in 182 out load factor 97%

Ok not yields and only one day but kinda sounds like they are all doing ok!

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

but anyhow, I reckon he/she is out of touch with what's going on up here, but here's hoping that DLH can make the FRA (and MUC) link(s) work and that other airlines

Out of touch? Nah
I grew up nearby and keep a close eye on “home”. I grew up with huge hopes watching NWA, BA, AA, AC and UA all launch long haul once PIK lost it’s monopoly. Then I discovered the meaning of the word “bubble” and became a marketing analyst.
I look at what was compared to what now is, American just dropped GLA, *again*. Air Canada once flew GLA-YYZ daily on a B741 and now manage 3 weekly peak summer. Continental flew 11 weekly 757s at their peak, or daily DC10-30s, now we have the shortest season EWR since launch in 1998. Kudos to Delta but look at the EDI/GLA split on DL/UA/AA/AC and ME3 capacity and it’s clear GLA is continuing to lose the battle badly. You wanna believe things are rosey, then fair play, but GLA these days to me is like the ex whose life just never turned out the way it was meant to.
It’s clear EDI management are prepared to make a compelling deal to airlines, I see little evidence AGS could find their own backside with both hands and a torch. Now THAT’s condescending.

[VickersVicount]

BA LHR increasing by 5 extra weekly flights for W19/20

[ScotsSLF]

About time there was added capacity on GLA - LHR

[ifu05596]

Originally Posted by ScotsSLF

About time there was added capacity on GLA - LHR

Great news! It has been absolutely full and waitlisted every time I’ve been on it this month. I finished early today and couldn’t move into the 4.30, 6.30 or 8.15. Travelled to London on Sunday and was booked on last flight and would have moved to 3.30 or 6.30 as my plans changed but they were also full!