Flybe-9
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Doesn't seem to include the Flybe routes (as yet)
Virgin Atlantic, Air France and KLM launch codeshare partnership
Virgin Atlantic, Air France and KLM launch codeshare partnership
VLR failed for a few reasons - apathy was one - failed to be dynamic, and make any expansion in brand awareness in trying to take on BA domestic LHR dominance and compete with the lo-co's to other LON airports which many pax preferred.
Join Date: Feb 2002
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Virgin is putting its code on almost all (all?) Air France and KLM services between the UK and Amsterdam and Paris Charles de Gaulle (as well as on AF / KL long-haul to North America). So where does that leave the competing Flybe / Connect Airways services on routes such as Birmingham - Amsterdam and Birmingham - Paris? I can't see Virgin competing with its own codeshares and the services of its partners, so maybe there will now be some consolidation (dropping competing Flybe routes), with AF and KL upping capacity where necessary and releasing a few valuable slots at AMS and CDG for other routes.
Join Date: Jul 2003
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I'd expect it'll go the other way, the BE services will be kept to those destinations, possibly upgauged to the E195? As that would allow AF/KL to free up much needed slots for their own expansion.
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Virgin is putting its code on almost all (all?) Air France and KLM services between the UK and Amsterdam and Paris Charles de Gaulle (as well as on AF / KL long-haul to North America). So where does that leave the competing Flybe / Connect Airways services on routes such as Birmingham - Amsterdam and Birmingham - Paris? I can't see Virgin competing with its own codeshares and the services of its partners, so maybe there will now be some consolidation (dropping competing Flybe routes), with AF and KL upping capacity where necessary and releasing a few valuable slots at AMS and CDG for other routes.
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Virgin is putting its code on almost all (all?) Air France and KLM services between the UK and Amsterdam and Paris Charles de Gaulle (as well as on AF / KL long-haul to North America). So where does that leave the competing Flybe / Connect Airways services on routes such as Birmingham - Amsterdam and Birmingham - Paris? I can't see Virgin competing with its own codeshares and the services of its partners, so maybe there will now be some consolidation (dropping competing Flybe routes), with AF and KL upping capacity where necessary and releasing a few valuable slots at AMS and CDG for other routes.
AF/KL mainline continue to fly with their own metal where Airbus & Boeing size are required.
Not sure how that would play out with AF/KL unions however...
Join Date: Jul 2003
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Not strictly true...they operate a shared service with AF with each airline "buying" blocks of seats off each other so that they can both offer double the frequency they otherwise could
Flybe have too many aircraft flying unprofitable routes. Provided AF/KL play ball, they will regain aircraft availability to place elsewhere on their network. Flybe can take over the routes and slots that match the capacity required. EG replace AF/KL routes flown by the ATR/E170/190 of KLC and Hop! with BE Q400/170/195, freeing up AF/KL to open new routes elsewhere through Europe. AF/KL can also save on nightstopping aircraft and crews out of base in the UK with BE taking on the early flights.
AF/KL mainline continue to fly with their own metal where Airbus & Boeing size are required.
Not sure how that would play out with AF/KL unions however...
AF/KL mainline continue to fly with their own metal where Airbus & Boeing size are required.
Not sure how that would play out with AF/KL unions however...
If I book an Air France or KLM ticket in an expectation of flying on their own metal and service levels which have been well supported from the UK regions since the '80s, I don't really want to fly on an old second hand Q400 with flybe. Nor will either set of union be happy to see their own profitable flying being given away to a basket case British airline that couldn't make money....well frankly at all. That's not to say Air France might not try, look at the farce of JOON, another example of an outfit not being fit for the market they were operating in. Am not sure anyone benefits from swapping a new KLM ER7 for a Q400, and let's be honest, flybe just cannot ever make money with jets. They negotiated the worst leasing agreement in known history on the Embraers that's been an albatross round their necks ever since. Not sure why KLM or AF want to swap money making routes to redeploy their assets on new routes, there's gotta be a balance IMHO.
Personally given how Air France and KLM are an uneasy marriage, I am baffled as to how Virgin really adds anything. So they can codeshare between two points VS don't even fly to, wow! It would be different if there was a decent feed from CDG or AMS onto VS long haul at MAN, but is that something the big two are willing to do?
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Well let me rephrase that.
If I book an Air France or KLM ticket in an expectation of flying on their own metal and service levels which have been well supported from the UK regions since the '80s, I don't really want to fly on an old second hand Q400 with flybe. Nor will either set of union be happy to see their own profitable flying being given away to a basket case British airline that couldn't make money....well frankly at all. That's not to say Air France might not try, look at the farce of JOON, another example of an outfit not being fit for the market they were operating in. Am not sure anyone benefits from swapping a new KLM ER7 for a Q400, and let's be honest, flybe just cannot ever make money with jets. They negotiated the worst leasing agreement in known history on the Embraers that's been an albatross round their necks ever since. Not sure why KLM or AF want to swap money making routes to redeploy their assets on new routes, there's gotta be a balance IMHO.
Personally given how Air France and KLM are an uneasy marriage, I am baffled as to how Virgin really adds anything. So they can codeshare between two points VS don't even fly to, wow! It would be different if there was a decent feed from CDG or AMS onto VS long haul at MAN, but is that something the big two are willing to do?
If I book an Air France or KLM ticket in an expectation of flying on their own metal and service levels which have been well supported from the UK regions since the '80s, I don't really want to fly on an old second hand Q400 with flybe. Nor will either set of union be happy to see their own profitable flying being given away to a basket case British airline that couldn't make money....well frankly at all. That's not to say Air France might not try, look at the farce of JOON, another example of an outfit not being fit for the market they were operating in. Am not sure anyone benefits from swapping a new KLM ER7 for a Q400, and let's be honest, flybe just cannot ever make money with jets. They negotiated the worst leasing agreement in known history on the Embraers that's been an albatross round their necks ever since. Not sure why KLM or AF want to swap money making routes to redeploy their assets on new routes, there's gotta be a balance IMHO.
Personally given how Air France and KLM are an uneasy marriage, I am baffled as to how Virgin really adds anything. So they can codeshare between two points VS don't even fly to, wow! It would be different if there was a decent feed from CDG or AMS onto VS long haul at MAN, but is that something the big two are willing to do?
Longer term there could be fleet replacement, or cabin refreshes. HOP fly a mixture of aircraft, including props and older Embraer 13/14X's.
The question is, what to KLC/Hop! etc offer that's different to what Flybe could potentially do. I know KL offer a light snack, but the rest of it is improved customer service levels. Put a VS uniform, refresh the training to VS levels, offer a light snack on flights connecting to hubs and link up the online/tech levels to that of VS. What would then be missing?
The point i'm trying to make is that it's unlikely Flybe will continue within its current state and improvements will come.
If you book with AF, you could be flying Hop. If you book KL, at present you could be flying Stobart, although KLC is more like a KL offshoot than Hop is with AF. Flybe will become Virgin branded and is part owned by VS, so if you book AF/KL but on an (ex) flybe aircraft, you're effectively flying VS.
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What will happen with the current Flybe setup no-one really knows. We could see them introduce increased service levels. But there are distinct differences between AF/KL and what Flybe currently offer. Hop and KLC are feeder Airlines feeding the wider network, flybe are likely going to still do that for VS and partners, but also have an extensive network separate to feeding hubs. There could be 2 sets of service levels.
Longer term there could be fleet replacement, or cabin refreshes. HOP fly a mixture of aircraft, including props and older Embraer 13/14X's.
The question is, what to KLC/Hop! etc offer that's different to what Flybe could potentially do. I know KL offer a light snack, but the rest of it is improved customer service levels. Put a VS uniform, refresh the training to VS levels, offer a light snack on flights connecting to hubs and link up the online/tech levels to that of VS. What would then be missing?
The point i'm trying to make is that it's unlikely Flybe will continue within its current state and improvements will come.
If you book with AF, you could be flying Hop. If you book KL, at present you could be flying Stobart, although KLC is more like a KL offshoot than Hop is with AF. Flybe will become Virgin branded and is part owned by VS, so if you book AF/KL but on an (ex) flybe aircraft, you're effectively flying VS.
Longer term there could be fleet replacement, or cabin refreshes. HOP fly a mixture of aircraft, including props and older Embraer 13/14X's.
The question is, what to KLC/Hop! etc offer that's different to what Flybe could potentially do. I know KL offer a light snack, but the rest of it is improved customer service levels. Put a VS uniform, refresh the training to VS levels, offer a light snack on flights connecting to hubs and link up the online/tech levels to that of VS. What would then be missing?
The point i'm trying to make is that it's unlikely Flybe will continue within its current state and improvements will come.
If you book with AF, you could be flying Hop. If you book KL, at present you could be flying Stobart, although KLC is more like a KL offshoot than Hop is with AF. Flybe will become Virgin branded and is part owned by VS, so if you book AF/KL but on an (ex) flybe aircraft, you're effectively flying VS.
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No sensible CEO will have two service levels on a Q400. There’s a load of “coulds” there, a lot of costs, but the bit I am not seeing is the ROI. Tbh it feels, ironically, like BACON, one last throw of the dice before giving up.