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Thomas Cook-2

Old 21st Sep 2019, 18:01
  #961 (permalink)  
 
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Ah, so this may have a lot to do with what "Brexit" headlines it produces. Of course that couldn't possibly influence the outcome could it?

As I understand it Germany somehow has different rules for the government helping airlines out as with Air Berlin, despite us all being part of the EU and subject to EU law, for the moment at least.
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 18:01
  #962 (permalink)  
 
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would that make no odds, German or English ? I thought EU law is governments could not assist airlines ??
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 18:10
  #963 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by STN Ramp Rat View Post

Thomas Cook Airlines in the UK undertake the flight planning for Condor, Condor look after the ground handling for the group. I have no idea what other services are shared. The German government have a significant input into how this will pan out and they have a different approach to the UK Government but they need Thomas Cook UK to produce the flight plans. Thomas Cook were asking for a government bailout .... but no one has said which government.
Luftie would be able take over the flight planning for Condor at quite short notice and they will probably even buy Condor, no need for the German government to intervene.
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 18:17
  #964 (permalink)  
 
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Not sure of the detail but as I recall reading there was a difference with Air Berlin that meant they could continue trading for a period, in a similar way that US airlines can under protection from creditors. This meant that it could continue to help with any repatriation I think.
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 18:35
  #965 (permalink)  
 
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Airberlin had an "bankruptcy self managed" that means they filed bankruptcy but had an own guy taking care of it, and by this they needed money from the government (150Mio €) and were able to continue trading/ dealing to split up everything. The 150€ from the government saved the salaries for 3 months so the airline wasn't grounded. Reason for this were the expensive slots and other stuff. They now managed to pay back all 150mio€. Slots were not lost, and were traded.

but I don't see a reason why LH should by Condor. There is Thomas Cook Aviation (old new subsidiary Airberlin aviation 2.AOC) which is operating a lot cheaper with a modern 321sharklet harmonized fleet. If Lufthansa buys, then that airline with slots!
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 18:53
  #966 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by eggc View Post
would that make no odds, German or English ? I thought EU law is governments could not assist airlines ??
....... thatís correct NOT, how do Alitalia survive, there is always a way to navigate EU law if the government want to. In the UK we gold plate it and then apply it literally before blaming Brussels. As a country we should really learn how to play the game
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 19:09
  #967 (permalink)  
MHG
 
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As much as it is true that LH would be able to organize flight planning for DE, I am pretty sure the German anti competition watchdog would not be amused ...
It woud be a hard sell for LH to get a waiver for a takeover.
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 19:10
  #968 (permalink)  
 
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There is an important point here that several hundred TC crew members are setting out to do their very best tonight and need to be able to make safe and sensible decisions as they fly. Much of this is really not helpful to doing so. The crew in AYT are clearly focused on the job if the aircraft is tech there, but donít let this scrutiny get to a point where other crews are fearful of doing the right thing in case it is wrongly portrayed as the impending downfall of the airline.
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 19:18
  #969 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Albert Hall View Post
There is an important point here that several hundred TC crew members are setting out to do their very best tonight and need to be able to make safe and sensible decisions as they fly. Much of this is really not helpful to doing so. The crew in AYT are clearly focused on the job if the aircraft is tech there, but donít let this scrutiny get to a point where other crews are fearful of doing the right thing in case it is wrongly portrayed as the impending downfall of the airline.
Are you seriously suggesting that a crew would knowingly operate a flight unsafely due to speculation on a Internet rumour board? If that was remotely true then said crew are not fit to fly under any circumstances. Integrity is not a matter of situation
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 19:35
  #970 (permalink)  
 
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What I am saying is that the crews will already be operating under extreme pressure. Do not add to it with speculation. Iíd have thought that was apparent without needing such a tetchy response.
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 19:45
  #971 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Albert Hall View Post
What I am saying is that the crews will already be operating under extreme pressure. Do not add to it with speculation. Iíd have thought that was apparent without needing such a tetchy response.
If the crews don't feel fit to fly due to undue pressure then don't fly, it's literally the first thing on the human factors course.
The safety of the passengers is the only consideration.
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 19:47
  #972 (permalink)  
 
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I listened to the head of TSSA on the radio this morning. He very sensibly pointed out that the most important thing the government should remember while dithering is that, should TC go down, that will effectively leave a monopoly situation re package holiday and that monopoly will be with TUI. I know Jet2 could be considered but I think he was right, TUI would trump the lot.
Somebody further up the thread mentioned this demand for £200M as being needed to run the airline right now. My understanding of the bank's demands (RBS, aka UK Government, isn't that an irony?) for the £200M is to cover any difficulties TC may have over the winter season with a lack of bookings. In that case, I would think it would be no big deal for the government to underwrite any losses that may arise in the event of undersold booking. With a guarantee to cover that, the banks don't need sacks full of money.
As for the EU rules, what would they do if they considered any aid from the government as a subsidy? Kick us out of the EU? Hang on, we have done that to ourselves anyway. And doesn't Airbus wallow in subsidies? And what about Air France? I don't know for certain but I have been led to believe they receive subsidies on a regular basis, to prevent them going under.
Finally, if it is any consolation, while spending a good day photographing planes at Gatwick today, I reckon I must have seen half a dozen of TC's planes arrive.
I really hope the idiots in Whitehall come up with a plan, and soon. If they don't and TC is allowed to fail, I will have to come to the conclusion that the government (via their bank) have virtually conspired to push TC into this position. Frankly, I would prefer to see the government fail, rather than TC!
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 19:48
  #973 (permalink)  
 
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only people who have been in such an situation can talk about it. Its not an obvious pressure. Its a nice pressure because you do everything to keep your airline up because you love it. its feelings. So it doesn't feel like negative stress and pressure. But it somehow is. And then small things happen and you know : Why didn't you just leave the A/C on the ground ?
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 19:49
  #974 (permalink)  
 
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I really hope the idiots in Whitehall come up with a plan
Surely it should have been the idiots in TCX Management that meant this situation never occurred?
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 20:01
  #975 (permalink)  
 
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TCX's best hope is that the Chinese conglomerate Fosun agrees to stump up the additional £200m reserves requested by the Banks. Until they refuse, the Directors will be concentrating on that avenue, as it provides a long-term solution. Failing that, there may be other avenues under discussion, such as:
- fire sale of assets
- new lines of credit from banks (unlikely)
- another potential rescuer (unlikely)
It's inconceivable that Government will provide rescue funds.

I wish all those associated with TCX well. Rest assured that the Directors will be doing everything they can to save the company. That's what they are paid for, and their reputations will be damaged by failure.
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 20:05
  #976 (permalink)  
 
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| friend went into one of their shops today as he's paid a deposit on a holiday and was told to come back next week. He was told by someone there that it's looking like planes grounded sometime Sunday.
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 20:11
  #977 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LGS6753 View Post
TCX's best hope is that the Chinese conglomerate Fosun agrees to stump up the additional £200m reserves requested by the Banks. Until they refuse, the Directors will be concentrating on that avenue, as it provides a long-term solution. Failing that, there may be other avenues under discussion, such as:
- fire sale of assets
- new lines of credit from banks (unlikely)
- another potential rescuer (unlikely)
It's inconceivable that Government will provide rescue funds.

I wish all those associated with TCX well. Rest assured that the Directors will be doing everything they can to save the company. That's what they are paid for, and their reputations will be damaged by failure.
Fosun have already walked away, which is why Thomas Cook Group appealed to the Government days ago. This was all published in the New York hearings that I posted about in this thread but was dismissed about owing to the fact that I know nothing.... I know plenty to say that what we are seeing now, is exactly because of what happened in New York last week. Fosun is the red herring in all this. The bondholders have said no. Thomas Cook is now asking the British Government (note, not the German or Scandinavian Govts where they have significant and more profitable operations) for a bailout.

It won't be forthcoming. We are now entering the final 24 hours of the existence of the oldest British tour operator, sans a an 11th hour billionaire willing to buy up assets over two countries and and an orderbook of debt.

Sorry, but its true.
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 20:14
  #978 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BirdmanBerry View Post
| friend went into one of their shops today as he's paid a deposit on a holiday and was told to come back next week. He was told by someone there that it's looking like planes grounded sometime Sunday.
11pm tomorrow is the standard time that the proverbial hits the fan... (00:00CET). That's the point when administrators would legally have to take over, or liquidation (worse case) would happen.
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 20:14
  #979 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BirdmanBerry View Post
| friend went into one of their shops today as he's paid a deposit on a holiday and was told to come back next week. He was told by someone there that it's looking like planes grounded sometime Sunday.
do you really think they are briefing staff in the travel shops with this level of detail and not staff in the airlines.... itís an individuals opinion for gods sake and therefore no more reliable than 99.9% of the posting on this forum
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 20:15
  #980 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
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Too much water under the bridge now I’m afraid, the TC brand is broken completely. Nobody in their right mind will be booking anything with them now, even if the government were to stump up the cash.
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