Heathrow-2
PDXCWL45
I have no anger just suggesting that if the DfT have that % of funds then it can be spent around the rail network for the benefit of all, including the Welsh regions. Nationalise Heathrow? with all their debt - no.
I have no anger just suggesting that if the DfT have that % of funds then it can be spent around the rail network for the benefit of all, including the Welsh regions. Nationalise Heathrow? with all their debt - no.
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Except it won't. Any money spent on Heathrow isn't taken from the regions as that amount of spend would never be envisaged for the regions. The UK is and always will be London centric.
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Actually, one, possibly the main, reason why the scogov supports R3 is that any capital spend in England results in a Barnett formula allocation of capital to Scotland.
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Except it won't. Any money spent on Heathrow isn't taken from the regions as that amount of spend would never be envisaged for the regions. The UK is and always will be London centric.
It is also something that has been on the cards for a very long time so hasn't just jumped to the front of the queue because it happens to be in the SE.
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It will go through as a 100 morons from The Labour Party are voting for it but only to spite Corbyn.
I'm politically homeless. We have the biggest bunch of idiots running our Parliament in Western Europe.
I'm politically homeless. We have the biggest bunch of idiots running our Parliament in Western Europe.
Of course it will. and when it hits the fan and goes bust they will not be around to except the blame
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This is one of the biggest decisions the country will ever make possibly screwing up one of the things which does actually still work......just !
.....Heathrow could well sink in a mountain of debt based on this decision.
Whilst we are hearing lots of sound bites , forensic detail around financing is of course totally ignored.
Grayling has reiterated that not a penny of government money is be spent on Heathrow BUT one presumes he will use smoke and mirror tactics and will referr to the runway and not the supporting infastructure.
And of course the scrutiny of the nation's mouthpiece on this "It's your BBC" will as ever be sadly lacking.
No paxmanesque interrogation from BBCKamalAhmad and BBCwestcott thank you very much. These ineffectual lightweights really should be syphoned off to Ceebeebies.
Politically I'm an aethist however I cannot BELIEVE that Labour are about to miss such an open goal.
Given SNP support is now wavering Corbyn could have imposed The Whip (assuming he has control of the party ) and actually defeated the Government on this.
You can argue on other forums the rights and wrongs of decisions based on politics over moral substance, that is another arguemnt BUT having 100 Mps voting against their own leader is to say the least a bewildering juxtaposition in today's politics.
In other news there was no response from Prophead who apparently is out of the country.
.....Heathrow could well sink in a mountain of debt based on this decision.
Whilst we are hearing lots of sound bites , forensic detail around financing is of course totally ignored.
Grayling has reiterated that not a penny of government money is be spent on Heathrow BUT one presumes he will use smoke and mirror tactics and will referr to the runway and not the supporting infastructure.
And of course the scrutiny of the nation's mouthpiece on this "It's your BBC" will as ever be sadly lacking.
No paxmanesque interrogation from BBCKamalAhmad and BBCwestcott thank you very much. These ineffectual lightweights really should be syphoned off to Ceebeebies.
Politically I'm an aethist however I cannot BELIEVE that Labour are about to miss such an open goal.
Given SNP support is now wavering Corbyn could have imposed The Whip (assuming he has control of the party ) and actually defeated the Government on this.
You can argue on other forums the rights and wrongs of decisions based on politics over moral substance, that is another arguemnt BUT having 100 Mps voting against their own leader is to say the least a bewildering juxtaposition in today's politics.
In other news there was no response from Prophead who apparently is out of the country.
Last edited by Navpi; 25th Jun 2018 at 07:00.
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Quite agree Navpi. Scrutiny by the BBC has been dire.
Just heard Grayling on the BBC assert that because airports such as Liverpool and Newcastle supported Heathrow expansion, it shows it's a project that benefits the whole of the UK.
Hmmm. Spot the absence of the second and third largest cities in England and Scotland's capital with much larger airports, did you? No follow up question to Grayling of course.
And didn't the Transport Committee indicate that Newcastle and Liverpool could actually be two of the airports to lose some of their other direct services, along with Manchester and Leeds in the North? (Someone quoted the figures above but I can't find it now).
Just heard Grayling on the BBC assert that because airports such as Liverpool and Newcastle supported Heathrow expansion, it shows it's a project that benefits the whole of the UK.
Hmmm. Spot the absence of the second and third largest cities in England and Scotland's capital with much larger airports, did you? No follow up question to Grayling of course.
And didn't the Transport Committee indicate that Newcastle and Liverpool could actually be two of the airports to lose some of their other direct services, along with Manchester and Leeds in the North? (Someone quoted the figures above but I can't find it now).
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Corbyn won't want a potential rebellion over Heathrow i doubt it's important enough to him to risk it. Also if he uses the Whip to vote against Heathrow R3 then he's opening himself up to criticism of putting party politics before national interest and more importantly stopping the creation of jobs for working people.
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Unless they're hoping to negotiate a "keep quiet" deal from Heathrow to mitigate the vast sums they've already sunk in to a losing proposition.
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Potential Loss of direct flights from Northern Airports:
Not sure if this has already been posted but it's from Airport Watch and some of the data was also in the Yorkshire Post.
It is likely that Leeds Bradford Airport would see 4,449 fewer international flights a year by 2030 if the 3rd runway went ahead. Doncaster Sheffield Airport would lose 1,413 while the North’s major hub – Manchester – would lose 20,258. Keighley MP John Grogan, who requested the figures from the Commons Transport Committee, said Heathrow expansion would mean Britain’s regions losing out. The Labour MP also questioned the Government’s pledge to ring-fence 15% per cent of slots on the new runway for domestic connections to the rest of the UK. This can only happen if they are subsidised, and these flights almost always run at a loss.
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Not sure if this has already been posted but it's from Airport Watch and some of the data was also in the Yorkshire Post.
It is likely that Leeds Bradford Airport would see 4,449 fewer international flights a year by 2030 if the 3rd runway went ahead. Doncaster Sheffield Airport would lose 1,413 while the North’s major hub – Manchester – would lose 20,258. Keighley MP John Grogan, who requested the figures from the Commons Transport Committee, said Heathrow expansion would mean Britain’s regions losing out. The Labour MP also questioned the Government’s pledge to ring-fence 15% per cent of slots on the new runway for domestic connections to the rest of the UK. This can only happen if they are subsidised, and these flights almost always run at a loss.
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Potential Loss of direct flights from Northern Airports:
Not sure if this has already been posted but it's from Airport Watch and some of the data was also in the Yorkshire Post.
It is likely that Leeds Bradford Airport would see 4,449 fewer international flights a year by 2030 if the 3rd runway went ahead. Doncaster Sheffield Airport would lose 1,413 while the North’s major hub – Manchester – would lose 20,258.
Not sure if this has already been posted but it's from Airport Watch and some of the data was also in the Yorkshire Post.
It is likely that Leeds Bradford Airport would see 4,449 fewer international flights a year by 2030 if the 3rd runway went ahead. Doncaster Sheffield Airport would lose 1,413 while the North’s major hub – Manchester – would lose 20,258.
PDXCWL - You appear to be confusing international flights with long-haul intercontinental ones. The vast majority of pax using Leeds-Bradford and Doncaster Airports fly on international routes. Projected numbers of lost regional flights were presented at the Transport Select Committee meeting on June 5th. Headline numbers were -74000 regional flights per annum by 2030 rising to -161000 per annum by 2050.
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Well as per the article Keighley MP John Grogan, who requested the figures from the Commons Transport Committee.
I assume the Transport Committee didn't just make up figures but what their source was I don't know.
However, Justine Greening has also referred to the potential loss of direct air services to regional airports. The other figures that had also been posted were in percentage terms I recall. I would think it likely that these sort of forecasts would take into account projected growth at those regional airports before R3 opened. Hence the reference to 2030.
And I see Ozzy has now correctly pointed out that the figures refer to all international flights, not just long haul.
I assume the Transport Committee didn't just make up figures but what their source was I don't know.
However, Justine Greening has also referred to the potential loss of direct air services to regional airports. The other figures that had also been posted were in percentage terms I recall. I would think it likely that these sort of forecasts would take into account projected growth at those regional airports before R3 opened. Hence the reference to 2030.
And I see Ozzy has now correctly pointed out that the figures refer to all international flights, not just long haul.
Last edited by MANFOD; 25th Jun 2018 at 08:55. Reason: another reference
Thread Starter
As a couple of minutes on the LBA website would have revealed, around 50 of the 65 or so daily departures are to international destinations.
Alicante, Amsterdam, Antalya, Arrecife, Barcelona, Berlin, Bratislava, Budapest, Corfu, Dublin, Dusseldorf, Faro, Fuerteventura, Funchal, Gerona, Ibiza, Kefallinia, Larnaca, Mahon, Malaga, Malta, Murcia, Nice, Palma, Paphos, Paris CDG, Pisa, Tenerife, Venice, Vilnius ...
Alicante, Amsterdam, Antalya, Arrecife, Barcelona, Berlin, Bratislava, Budapest, Corfu, Dublin, Dusseldorf, Faro, Fuerteventura, Funchal, Gerona, Ibiza, Kefallinia, Larnaca, Mahon, Malaga, Malta, Murcia, Nice, Palma, Paphos, Paris CDG, Pisa, Tenerife, Venice, Vilnius ...
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In other news there was no response from Prophead who apparently is out of the country.
Whilst we are hearing lots of sound bites , forensic detail around financing is of course totally ignored.
It is important to bear the following points in mind however:
It was way cheaper to do when it was previously approved before all this stick a pin in the SE rubbish came up. How much extra has this added to the cost and been spent already to probably end up with the same result? I'm sure some people have made lots of money out of these endless consultations.
A huge figure will be paid out in compensation payments. When comparing with projects elsewhere in the world can we include the sum paid in compo where it even exists? Can we also forensically analyse these payments as this element is always open to much abuse.
The investors behind the funding of this project seek to be insured against political meddling. This is completely understandable after the mess the government have made of it and if you had planning approval in place for an extension to your house plus a mortgage approved, then had the approval cancelled and it rolled on for 10 years with ever more costs, wouldn't you ask the same? You would now have paid huge amounts in redesign fees and the bank would probably have pulled out long ago. I would imagine this comes from the investors rather than HAL itself but is entirely understandable. It is not there in case the project is not a success but to protect against more incompetence in the decision making process. Remember investment money for these large projects can usually contain an element made up from peoples pensions and savings investments.
Saying this is a project just for London is like saying the Channel Tunnel should not have been built as it only benefits Folkestone & Dover. It is nationally important and that is not my opinion but that of many regional businesses who all have done their figures. If you can prove this is not the case, rather than just pure speculation and biased fortune telling then lets hear it.
Not sure if this has already been posted but it's from Airport Watch and some of the data was also in the Yorkshire Post.
It is likely that Leeds Bradford Airport would see 4,449 fewer international flights a year by 2030 if the 3rd runway went ahead.
It is likely that Leeds Bradford Airport would see 4,449 fewer international flights a year by 2030 if the 3rd runway went ahead.
Politically I'm an aethist however I cannot BELIEVE that Labour are about to miss such an open goal.