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Heathrow-2

Old 9th Aug 2018, 22:20
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I don't think it will take legal challenge or other environmental protest to see that this runway never gets built. Whatever a gullible Parliament and Regional Airport consortium was led to vote in favour of, it is now more than ever apparent that that R3 is a preposterous idea with no sound business case. There are alternatives which provide much better value for money. If even the FT thinks so then why on Earth is this thing still being talked about? A heavily indebted owner which is paying out more in dividends than it is earning doesn't sound like a safe pair of hands to be embarking on such a venture in any case.

https://www.ft.com/content/98e6b128-...1-31da4279a601
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Old 10th Aug 2018, 09:08
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Originally Posted by roverman
If even the FT thinks so then why on Earth is this thing still being talked about?
The FT was one of the biggest cheerleaders for the UK joining the euro and we've seen the issues the euro has had and is still having so the FT is hardly infallible.
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Old 10th Aug 2018, 10:34
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Originally Posted by highwideandugly
For discussion!

just looking at an on old ( not too)airfield map from Heathrow. Know(and now) it’s all hypothetical..but what would the consequences and future have been if the 05/23 runway had been retained..both operational and financial?
Terminals could have been planned and thought out..on a complete East...west orientation .inc.the maintenance area..which possibly could have gone...

too late I know..but could have worked?
I wonder what the consequences might have been if BEA had remained at Northolt, the runway realigned to E/W and a tunnel build to Heathrow. Still hypothetical now.
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Old 10th Aug 2018, 18:23
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I wonder what the consequences might have been if BEA had remained at Northolt, the runway realigned to E/W and a tunnel build to Heathrow. Still hypothetical now.

..........or if a third (and fourth) rwy had been built as soon as it became apparent that it was required, i.e. at about the time when the government declared that Heathrow was "full" (circa 1977).

Equally hypothetical?
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Old 10th Aug 2018, 21:55
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oops hes done it again....

Fears ignoring recommendations on new runway’s impact could imperil development High Court is to consider a judicial review of government’s decision to support the £14bn Heathrow extension




The UK government has largely ignored recommendations from a key parliamentary committee about Heathrow airport’s third runway scheme, the committee’s chair has said, making it much more likely that courts will strike down the project. Lilian Greenwood, the Labour MP who chairs the Commons transport select committee, said transport secretary Chris Grayling “gave the impression that 24 of our 25 recommendations had been accepted”, but said his comments were just “rhetoric”. “The reality was that only two or three of our recommendations were actually accepted,” she said. “I suppose at best you could say that the government said they agreed with the spirit of our recommendations and would ensure those matters were dealt with in the [planning] process.” The committee’s recommendations for Heathrow expansion included adopting stricter air-quality standards, setting a binding target to prevent more airport-related traffic and defining noise-pollution limits. Later this year, the High Court will consider a judicial review against the government’s decision to support the £14bn Heathrow project. The judicial review has been brought by five local councils, with the backing of Sadiq Khan, the Labour mayor of London, and Greenpeace, the environmental campaigning organisation. The councils are challenging the decision on the grounds of air quality, climate change, noise pollution and transport access. Ms Greenwood said that if the courts overturned the government’s decision, it would “make the economic case on which Heathrow expansion is predicated less favourable” and mean “even greater extended uncertainty” for local communities. Ms Greenwood’s committee has also been investigating the failure of the East Coast mainline franchise. In May, the government stripped the franchise from Virgin and Stagecoach. It has also been looking into the disastrous introduction of new timetables in May, which has led to thousands of cancelled services and months of disruption. Ms Greenwood criticised Mr Grayling over both affairs.
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Old 10th Aug 2018, 23:45
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A judicial review can instruct the government to adopt tighter regulation and controls.
It would a major and somewhat brave decision to strike down the project completely, given it has passed the House of Commons.
Conditions and restrictions? Possibly.
Striking it down? Unlikely but not impossible.
Stranger things have happened as Boris becoming PM might make this a moot point.

There are some on here who are the R3 equivalent of remoaners IMHO. Navpi is running a one man campaign here to stop tens of thousands of new jobs and the first increase in hub capacity in my lifetime. But yeah, too expensive and difficult.....
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Old 11th Aug 2018, 05:34
  #867 (permalink)  
 
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Morning Skippy, a campaign?

I'm glad you think I have influence but i can assure you simply repeating some newsworthy items will not make one iota of difference either way. I repeat it here simply to inform others who have an interest in the subject. The house of commons supported Heathrow a totally democratic decision so as you say woebetide a judge going against it.

But it does raise the question of checks and balances, there is little point actually having a Transport Committee if nobody takes a blind bit of notice. I suspect most Mps who supported took their lead from the BBC news who as we all know were VERY supportive. No mention of the TAXPAYER invoice there .

It makes the Transport Committee appear to be a very expensive talking shop. Nothing more nothing less.
That is the point I make here.

Last edited by Navpi; 11th Aug 2018 at 05:47.
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Old 11th Aug 2018, 10:52
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Skippy. “some on here are the equivalent of R3 remoaners” a very ambiguous comment and far from the truth as it was not included in the Brexit material.
In respect of speculation on the outcome of the JR, how many years have you spent at the bar as a lawyer preferrably as a QC.
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Old 11th Aug 2018, 12:21
  #869 (permalink)  
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While most of the attention will be on the judicial review launched by the local authorities/Greenpeace, equally fascinating will be the JR from the originators of the overruled Extended Northern Runway proposal.

Clearly Heathrow Hub believe that no matter how dead a horse is, it can always benefit from a bit more flogging.
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Old 12th Aug 2018, 13:10
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Clearly Heathrow Hub believe that no matter how dead a horse is, it can always benefit from a bit more flogging.
Indeed. Apart from being untried and untested anywhere in the world, the Heathrow Hub proposal has one very important flaw: in order to increase capacity, permanent mixed mode is required with no respite for any flightpath residents at any time.

That would be unacceptable to everyone, especially supporters of expansion, including Heathrow Ltd..

Sometime in the future, once aircraft are even cleaner and quieter than now and mixed/segregated mode operations are no longer an issue, and once the technical and safety concerns are sorted, the Heathrow Hub proposal could be a template for a 4th parallel rwy.

However, it's academic for all of us, we'll all be long dead.
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Old 13th Aug 2018, 06:50
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45165222

Come March I presume EU pax will not be able to use egates either ?
It will be total gridlock.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45165222
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Old 13th Aug 2018, 08:06
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" The Heathrow Hub proposal could be a template for a 4th parallel rwy "

That's the problem with LHR cheer -leaders - they don't know when to stop....

Frank, you've just handed more ammunition to the Anti's...........................
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Old 13th Aug 2018, 08:09
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Passport Delays breach limits on 30 out of 31 days

Delays at Heathrow Airport passport control left passengers queuing for up to two and a half hours last month, figures show. On 30 out of 31 days in July, the border force missed its target of a 45-minute wait or less for 95% of visitors from outside the European Economic Area (EEA).

Virgin Atlantic, which obtained the data, said passengers are "frustrated". The government said it is deploying 200 extra staff to Heathrow this summer.According to the data, the longest immigration queues were on 6 July when travellers from outside the EEA - an area made up of 31 European countries - had to wait in line for up to two hours and 36 minutes.Craig Kreeger, the boss of Virgin Atlantic, said while it is agreed that security and safety is a priority, other countries are managing their borders better than the UK. He said "only the Border Force" can take action to "resolve these unacceptable queue times. At a time when the UK needs to show the world it is open for business, the government and Border Force need to provide a great first impression for every visitor every time," he said.

Citizens of the European Union, the EEA and Switzerland can use the electronic gates at Heathrow's passport control - but visitors from all other countries must have their passports checked by a border force official.
John Holland-Kaye, Heathrow's chief executive, has previously called for the Home Office to allow visitors from "low risk countries" - like the US, he suggests - to be allowed to use the electronic gates.

'Border farce'

Last week the boss of British Airways, Alex Cruz, wrote a letter to the Times urging the government to deal with Heathrow's "border farce".He said "two-hour queues are fast becoming the norm" and Heathrow has missed its target for non-EEA arrivals 6,000 times so far this year. BBC reporter Jenny Kumah said the Home Office explained its poor performance in July was worsened by a "large numbers of vulnerable adults and children arriving", alongside a number of computer errors. A Home Office spokesman said: "The vast majority of people who arrive at Heathrow get through the border within our service standards. But we understand the frustration for those who have experienced longer waits and remain fully committed to working with our partners to reduce waiting times as far as is possible."At the same time, we will not compromise the essential checks we carry out at the border which keep our country safe. We are making sure Border Force has the resources it needs and are deploying 200 additional staff at Heathrow over the summer."
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Old 13th Aug 2018, 08:50
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Talking casually to someone fairly high up within the civil service about matters customs and border related in the last couple of weeks it was clear that they are trying to plan for life after we leave the EU (whenever that may be, depending upon transition, how long any transition actually would be, or no transition) and it was clear that they are trying to get government to understand that a sudden exit would leave them incapable of managing borders or customs, having got too few staff, insufficient trainers experienced in customs procedures in particular, and currently absolutely no idea what they are planning for. Even the hoped for transition ending December 2020 may be tight.

It is our illustrious leader who stopped management at the Border Force from using their common sense, which experienced officers have in spades, and targeting arrivals based upon profiling. At the same time, the numbers of people working in front line border force positions has fallen, whilst the number of travelers has increased exponentially. If HMG is going to parachute 200 extra officers into LHR (they say "deploying" when the word is actually "redeploying"), one assumes that will be to the cost of longer delays at Eurotunnel, Manchester, Birmingham, Luton etc., which solves nothing - except of course looking after London (as per usual where the UK government is concerned). Then again, how may MPs and government ministers ever use an airport that isn't LHR?
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Old 13th Aug 2018, 12:09
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Originally Posted by Heathrow Harry
John Holland-Kaye, Heathrow's chief executive, has previously called for the Home Office to allow visitors from "low risk countries" - like the US, he suggests - to be allowed to use the electronic gates.
Definitely not - unless the deal is reciprocal. The US have no qualms about UK citizens having to queue for several hours to enter the US so allowing US citizens express access through UK Border Control is simply not on.
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Old 13th Aug 2018, 12:30
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Originally Posted by ATNotts
Talking casually to someone fairly high up within the civil service about matters customs and border related in the last couple of weeks it was clear that they are trying to plan for life after we leave the EU (whenever that may be, depending upon transition, how long any transition actually would be, or no transition) and it was clear that they are trying to get government to understand that a sudden exit would leave them incapable of managing borders or customs, having got too few staff, insufficient trainers experienced in customs procedures in particular, and currently absolutely no idea what they are planning for. Even the hoped for transition ending December 2020 may be tight.

It is our illustrious leader who stopped management at the Border Force from using their common sense, which experienced officers have in spades, and targeting arrivals based upon profiling. At the same time, the numbers of people working in front line border force positions has fallen, whilst the number of travelers has increased exponentially. If HMG is going to parachute 200 extra officers into LHR (they say "deploying" when the word is actually "redeploying"), one assumes that will be to the cost of longer delays at Eurotunnel, Manchester, Birmingham, Luton etc., which solves nothing - except of course looking after London (as per usual where the UK government is concerned). Then again, how may MPs and government ministers ever use an airport that isn't LHR?
A friend of mine works for the Border Agency and I don't think morale there is that good with turnover quite high.
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Old 13th Aug 2018, 12:30
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Originally Posted by BAengineer
Definitely not - unless the deal is reciprocal. The US have no qualms about UK citizens having to queue for several hours to enter the US so allowing US citizens express access through UK Border Control is simply not on.
Any UK citizen that uses ESTA and is on there second visit or more can use the US citizens channel.
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Old 13th Aug 2018, 13:55
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Originally Posted by PDXCWL45
Any UK citizen that uses ESTA and is on there second visit or more can use the US citizens channel.
Are you sure?. I have a B2 visa and are always directed to the visitors line.
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Old 13th Aug 2018, 14:20
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Originally Posted by BAengineer
Are you sure?. I have a B2 visa and are always directed to the visitors line.
I've used the US lane and e-gates when travelling on an ESTA.
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Old 13th Aug 2018, 14:23
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Thanks - I'll try it next time. If I end up detained by CBP I know who to blame..
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