Manchester-2
Perhaps you could type that in english Navpi are you saying that Manchester isn`t a proper international airport? if so don`t patronise us if it isn`t what you mean please explain because I have read and re read and it doesn`t make sense.
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I think Navpi is trying to say LHR's traffic is overwhelmingly leisure, despite its professed business credentials.
American @ MAN
The thread continues its comedic ability to ascribe all woes at Manchester to "unfair" competition from LHR and other nearby hubs "robbing" Manchester of its rightful long-haul services.
When AA started ORD in 1986, it was one of (I think) only two scheduled routes to the US from MAN at the time, the other being BA's then-TriStar service to JFK. There were abortive attempts to fly LAX in the early 90s with the BA 767, but for many years, it reigned supreme as *the* way to fly from MAN to pretty much any US destination.
Fast-forward 30 years and you have multiple hub options including PHL, EWR, ATL, non-stop services by the bucketload to Orlando, Vegas and even Seattle, San Fran, LAX, Boston and Houston. All of those passengers either went via the likes of LHR before - or used the only non-stop hub service to Chicago. The proliferation of non-stop services will have an inevitable effect on viability of a not-particularly-well-placed hub service to Chicago.
American is prioritising Philadelphia as a more profitable, less congested and lower cost hub than ORD. PHL has the daily A330 and no sign of ramping back as they have at ORD.
The decline of ORD is a direct function of American's corporate prioritisation of the hub at PHL (their decision, and a route well served from MAN) and the huge growth of other non-stops from MAN to US points. It's not a conspiracy about diverting traffic to LHR or DUB, and it's risible to suggest so.
If you need any further proof, just look at the latest CAA stats. MAN-USA traffic in September was up 8% versus last year with an increase of over 14,000. MAN-LHR traffic was down 11% with 6,000 fewer pax. How can anyone possibly argue that MAN-USA direct services are being cut to divert passengers via Heathrow?!!
When AA started ORD in 1986, it was one of (I think) only two scheduled routes to the US from MAN at the time, the other being BA's then-TriStar service to JFK. There were abortive attempts to fly LAX in the early 90s with the BA 767, but for many years, it reigned supreme as *the* way to fly from MAN to pretty much any US destination.
Fast-forward 30 years and you have multiple hub options including PHL, EWR, ATL, non-stop services by the bucketload to Orlando, Vegas and even Seattle, San Fran, LAX, Boston and Houston. All of those passengers either went via the likes of LHR before - or used the only non-stop hub service to Chicago. The proliferation of non-stop services will have an inevitable effect on viability of a not-particularly-well-placed hub service to Chicago.
American is prioritising Philadelphia as a more profitable, less congested and lower cost hub than ORD. PHL has the daily A330 and no sign of ramping back as they have at ORD.
The decline of ORD is a direct function of American's corporate prioritisation of the hub at PHL (their decision, and a route well served from MAN) and the huge growth of other non-stops from MAN to US points. It's not a conspiracy about diverting traffic to LHR or DUB, and it's risible to suggest so.
If you need any further proof, just look at the latest CAA stats. MAN-USA traffic in September was up 8% versus last year with an increase of over 14,000. MAN-LHR traffic was down 11% with 6,000 fewer pax. How can anyone possibly argue that MAN-USA direct services are being cut to divert passengers via Heathrow?!!
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@Dobbo Dobbo well yes, not a secret. It does much better in terms of %business per flight and yield than say LGW or MAN which is why airlines pay silly money to get slots.
e.g. China Airlines relaunching London on the A359 out of Gatwick with PR stating they are actively seeking LHR slots for 2018. Why? Beacause LHR is preferred to LGW on long haul business. Emirates fly high Y A380s out of LGW but not LHR. The fact that most people are going on hols in terms of % throughput is secondary to the ability to charge more in the front cabins due to market preference.
LHR DOES have business credentials in a way LGW lacks in exactly the same way MAN has over say LPL or LBA. Some good points though from posters!
e.g. China Airlines relaunching London on the A359 out of Gatwick with PR stating they are actively seeking LHR slots for 2018. Why? Beacause LHR is preferred to LGW on long haul business. Emirates fly high Y A380s out of LGW but not LHR. The fact that most people are going on hols in terms of % throughput is secondary to the ability to charge more in the front cabins due to market preference.
LHR DOES have business credentials in a way LGW lacks in exactly the same way MAN has over say LPL or LBA. Some good points though from posters!
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I think if you wind back this thread about 3 years there was a general feeling being expressed that MAN-PHL was a dying route. It had been down-gauged from A333 to A332, and the announcement that Astra-Zeneca were shrinking the Cheshire research centre seemed destined to take away much of the premium traffic. Roll on to today and MAN-PHL is just about all AA have left at MAN but it seems to be doing quite well, with no suggestion it will be cut back or pulled. Times change rapidly. 3 years ago MT weren't even flying to JFK let alone SFO, BOS, LAX and (soon) SEA. We probably are seeing a long-term decline in the presence of US Legacies at MAN, which is a shame in a sense but the overall picture on the MANtlantic is good and growing, a case of the right product wins. Europe is different, where most EU Legacies have survived, some have even thrived at MAN despite the meteoric growth of the locos.
And yes, we do often blame BA or LHR-centricity when something goes sideways. There is some historical justification for that sentiment but it is time we let it go. After all, when the last 'Speedbird' departed MAN we were at 20mppa, now we're at 28m. Where would you rather be?
And yes, we do often blame BA or LHR-centricity when something goes sideways. There is some historical justification for that sentiment but it is time we let it go. After all, when the last 'Speedbird' departed MAN we were at 20mppa, now we're at 28m. Where would you rather be?
BA killed the AA routes, same as they killed the ISB, LGW, where do I stop. It' so LHR-centric it's sickening.
Really ? Sickening for who exactly ?
- BA/IAG and its shareholders ? No way, they're making loads of coin thanks very much
- The MAN catchment area ? Not really, they got lots of better options these days
- MAG ? Doubt it - probably glad to see the back of them in many ways
- BA die hards and avios junkies ? Maybe - but they've got all the BA options via LHR if that's what floats their boat
- The MAN plane spotting fraternity ? Definitely not - lots more exotic planes to see since BA left
As for Islamabad well BA haven't even flown from LHR to Pakistan for years thanks to security concerns and a state funded basket case carrier residing at the other end. And the ME3 mopped up whatever was left over.
And who wants to fly to LGW to connect with the BA beach destinations now that most of them are served direct from MAN ? If there was a local point to point market for LGW FlyBe would be doing it, but they seem happy enough with Southampton
Really ? Sickening for who exactly ?
- BA/IAG and its shareholders ? No way, they're making loads of coin thanks very much
- The MAN catchment area ? Not really, they got lots of better options these days
- MAG ? Doubt it - probably glad to see the back of them in many ways
- BA die hards and avios junkies ? Maybe - but they've got all the BA options via LHR if that's what floats their boat
- The MAN plane spotting fraternity ? Definitely not - lots more exotic planes to see since BA left
As for Islamabad well BA haven't even flown from LHR to Pakistan for years thanks to security concerns and a state funded basket case carrier residing at the other end. And the ME3 mopped up whatever was left over.
And who wants to fly to LGW to connect with the BA beach destinations now that most of them are served direct from MAN ? If there was a local point to point market for LGW FlyBe would be doing it, but they seem happy enough with Southampton
Astra Zeneca did reduce at Alderley Edge when they moved a lot of R&D to Cambridge
but the gap left has been filled by many other small companies on the site in a centre of excellence so all in all the medical research has changed a bit and is growing again
hence PHL doing better.
but the gap left has been filled by many other small companies on the site in a centre of excellence so all in all the medical research has changed a bit and is growing again
hence PHL doing better.
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If you need any further proof, just look at the latest CAA stats. MAN-USA traffic in September was up 8% versus last year with an increase of over 14,000. MAN-LHR traffic was down 11% with 6,000 fewer pax. How can anyone possibly argue that MAN-USA direct services are being cut to divert passengers via Heathrow?!!
There is though the question of whether Chicago is a city that could attract p2p traffic, business or leisure. I've only visited the centre a couple of times and that was 20 years ago, but I gather it is regarded as a fine city. The problem for leisure travellers is that the surrounding areas may not have the same appeal for fly-drive holidays and tours. Boston is a great city and has New England; SFO & LAX are very popular in their own right but then there is the superb California Coast to explore. And, well Orlando is Disney and Florida.
As an aside, from that perspective I was sorry we lost Washington. A capital city and with some great scenery and interesting places not too far away. But I digress.
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No doubt Dublin 'is killing us'! Told someone to consider MAN-DUB-LAX as a winter alternate to LHR and now I'm greeted as a hero!
That Dublin pre-clearance is a bigger draw than we think and can support EI, AA and UA Chicago services!!
That Dublin pre-clearance is a bigger draw than we think and can support EI, AA and UA Chicago services!!
And who wants to fly to LGW to connect with the BA beach destinations now that most of them are served direct from MAN ?
It is a PITA to drive down to LGW, park up for two weeks then drive back after a holiday but I will do it.
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out triples? Last time I was on one I had to move seat because the one I was in was broken...despite being bodged up with duct tape.
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Depends where on the beach fleet he is going.
If it's the Caribbean, then don't forget there are no summer flight options to the likes of Antigua, St. Lucia, Port Of Span and Bahamas. Winter only sees 1-2 weekly at most on some of those too. Montego Bay could also be another point but with just TUI offering it, might not appeal to all if they don't have your hotel of choice.
If it's the Caribbean, then don't forget there are no summer flight options to the likes of Antigua, St. Lucia, Port Of Span and Bahamas. Winter only sees 1-2 weekly at most on some of those too. Montego Bay could also be another point but with just TUI offering it, might not appeal to all if they don't have your hotel of choice.
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The whole Dublin set-up has to be an issue impacting growth at some significant U.K. airports - most notably Manchester.
Pre-clearance facilities are a nice thing to talk about, but they’re not all that! And the more flights using DUB over the Atlantic the less appealing and less beneficial the whole pre-clearance set up gets. It simply moves the bottleneck to the east side of the Atlantic.
The bigger issue is the ludicrous level of U.K. Air Tax, with the ostriches down at Treasury in London murdering the regional aviation industry in the U.K. - even Double taxing U.K. domestic flights - and herding passengers in the direction of Dublin, Amsterdam etc. Then history shows that when other economies overheat, notably Ireland a few years back, the self-same sages under the direction of No 11 write out a big fat cheque from the hard-earned U.K. coffers to keep those who have faltered trucking along in the manner to which they have become accustomed!
Why not, for instance, multiply air tax on traffic being diverted out of the U.K. regions over other EU airports in order to help offset a tax break to the industry - both domestic and international - at airports inside the U.K.?
Oops sorry - that would require a thought wave to drift north of the Watford Gap. Silly Me! ....
Pre-clearance facilities are a nice thing to talk about, but they’re not all that! And the more flights using DUB over the Atlantic the less appealing and less beneficial the whole pre-clearance set up gets. It simply moves the bottleneck to the east side of the Atlantic.
The bigger issue is the ludicrous level of U.K. Air Tax, with the ostriches down at Treasury in London murdering the regional aviation industry in the U.K. - even Double taxing U.K. domestic flights - and herding passengers in the direction of Dublin, Amsterdam etc. Then history shows that when other economies overheat, notably Ireland a few years back, the self-same sages under the direction of No 11 write out a big fat cheque from the hard-earned U.K. coffers to keep those who have faltered trucking along in the manner to which they have become accustomed!
Why not, for instance, multiply air tax on traffic being diverted out of the U.K. regions over other EU airports in order to help offset a tax break to the industry - both domestic and international - at airports inside the U.K.?
Oops sorry - that would require a thought wave to drift north of the Watford Gap. Silly Me! ....
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You're unlikely to be flying to some of those places in the UK summer unless you are vfr.
Most of the Caribbean is susceptible to bad weather in the summer and autumn (hurricane season) and much of say Antigua and St Lucia shuts down for the summer months. Thats one reason why MAN routes to these places will only ever be seasonal winter
Most of the Caribbean is susceptible to bad weather in the summer and autumn (hurricane season) and much of say Antigua and St Lucia shuts down for the summer months. Thats one reason why MAN routes to these places will only ever be seasonal winter
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Thomson fly to MBJ/POP/PUJ/CUN and until recently, AUA and MT fly PUJ/CCC/VRA/SNU/HOG/CUN and VS fly BGI in the summer, as well as the Gatwick leisure routes (inc some extra TUI), so clearly a fair few people are flying there.
