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Cardiff-2

Old 26th Aug 2020, 11:27
  #1681 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
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Originally Posted by JSCL View Post
Whatever happened to Flyforbeans?
A half baked idea that was doomed by the last recession, this one would have completely wiped it out.
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 11:34
  #1682 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB View Post
Where do you get the scale to do this? And wouldn't a Cardiff based company mainly be serving South Wales?

What is the end game for WG - what would they regard as a "success" - operating at a profit? increased passenger numbers? "business friendly" flights to places of commercial/industrial importance? more links to hubs for global connectivity? cheap "bucket and spade" flights for welsh holidaymakers?
Were Aspro Holidays mainly serving south Wales, most people were of the impression they were mainly serving Cyprus along with all the other IT destinations and from airports across the UK and N. Ireland??

And who suggested that it would be Cardiff based?
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 11:58
  #1683 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry - thought you were talking about a WG supported tour operator to serve Wales?
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 13:40
  #1684 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB View Post
Sorry - thought you were talking about a WG supported tour operator to serve Wales?
Red Drogon Travel who owned Air Cymru were Cardiff based but that didn't stop them operating from the likes of LGW and leasing airc raft to the Airlines of Britain Group, they had a loyal following in Wales just for being a Welsh business.

Aspro Holidays much the same, the owners weren't even British never mind Welsh but had that loyal Welsh following just for being based there whilst they also operated thru such UK airports as BRS, EMA, GLA, NCL/ MAN. LTN, LGW, MSE & BFS.

What it seems CWL is suffering currently, according to other poster(s), is, dare I say it, 'English' tour operators who want to charge the Welsh a premium for the privilige of flying thru CWL, if WG can afford an airport can they not afford a tour operator to offer the travelling Welsh, even if they only travel once per year, a value for money product without overcharging them.

Yes, that tour operator/airline shall need to diversify in the quest for profit but then don't Welsh rugby ever play away?
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 14:01
  #1685 (permalink)  
 
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Depends what type of WG support you are talking about - could run into issues with competitors.
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 14:32
  #1686 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
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CWL really doesnít need to get more entangled with the WG - everything they touch is a disaster and state ownership is just another shackle around their business (whatís left of it). Why do you think IAG/BA are doing all they can to avoid state intervention (bailout) as if they accept it they will get state interference of some sort (however they dress it as commercial loans etc). The state does not run businesses well, period - thatís why they privatise. Come to think of it they donít usually run states well either 😂

itís really not the States job to provide holidays for its citizens, they have far more call for their resources at home (and they frequently screw this up too). Just saying.

Any operation needs to commercially stand on its own two feet. If it canít there is no business there.

imo CWL should throw everything they have at FR and Jet2. If they are not interested then again no business here.
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 14:44
  #1687 (permalink)  
 
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WG won't be interested in a tour operator. For them it'll be more about connecting Wales to UK and European cities and long haul for business and inbound tourism. Hence the PSO list they gave to the UK government and the German and Italian cities for Flybe operation and their target list of NYC, Toronto and Middle East hub.
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 14:54
  #1688 (permalink)  
 
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The machinations behind IAG/BAW "avoiding state intervention" ie not requesting a Government loan is said to be boardroom strategy to deny reciprocal or similar Government help for Virgin.
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 15:13
  #1689 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by southside bobby View Post
The machinations behind IAG/BAW "avoiding state intervention" ie not requesting a Government loan is said to be boardroom strategy to deny reciprocal or similar Government help for Virgin.
Whatever - they donít want it. Am pretty sure they really see VS as an irrelevance at this stage. VS looks a basket case. Would they really want HMG saying you canít do this or that (as a condition) to
them properly running their business commercially.

i am flying again from CWL this weekend (5th time since July). I hope I donít see their MD running the coffee shop again !
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 17:05
  #1690 (permalink)  
 
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Whatever-

Apologies if perhaps some of the facts may get in the way of the oration.

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Old 26th Aug 2020, 17:22
  #1691 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by southside bobby View Post
Whatever-

Apologies if perhaps some of the facts may get in the way of the oration.
No idea what that means.....having worked at BA for years (relatively recently) my views are not mere conjecture.
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 19:19
  #1692 (permalink)  
 
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Not mere conjecture...Deliberate BA strategy to distance themselves from state bailouts as it hurt UK rivals.

Not mere conjecture...BA would probably have accepted state aid either if Virgin with their own call succeeded or if Virgin eventually collapsed.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 00:22
  #1693 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TOM100 View Post
it’s really not the States job to provide holidays for its citizens, they have far more call for their resources at home (and they frequently screw this up too). Just saying.
So why is the state providing the gateway for those very citizens to travel to/from their holidays?

What I was suggesting that of all the WG incentives for businesses to develop in Wales could they not find a Holiday and/or tour operator business!

Originally Posted by TOM100 View Post
Any operation needs to commercially stand on its own two feet. If it can’t there is no business there.
Oh come on, why do you think BAMC opted to base themselves in Wales, Aston Martin are coming also I've read, why do you think Bruce started Cardiff Aviation in Wales, what about Bosch when they were there, Ford in Bridgend, why do you think Airbus UK have based themselves in Wales, and these are just a few that are there for the WG financial incentives?

Originally Posted by TOM100 View Post
imo CWL should throw everything they have at FR and Jet2. If they are not interested then again no business here.
MOL is an accountant by trade, I saw him in a TV interview regarding the MAX, all he could talk about was that with the MAX they could fly a few more pax whilst burning a few percent less fuel when compared to the -800, that is all he cares about, profit, he'll continue to utilise CWL so long as CWL give him what he wants and as soon as they stop he'll be on his bike, or should that be his MAX!
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 23:58
  #1694 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OC37 View Post
Red Drogon Travel who owned Air Cymru were Cardiff based but that didn't stop them operating from the likes of LGW and leasing airc raft to the Airlines of Britain Group, they had a loyal following in Wales just for being a Welsh business.

Aspro Holidays much the same, the owners weren't even British never mind Welsh but had that loyal Welsh following just for being based there whilst they also operated thru such UK airports as BRS, EMA, GLA, NCL/ MAN. LTN, LGW, MSE & BFS.

What it seems CWL is suffering currently, according to other poster(s), is, dare I say it, 'English' tour operators who want to charge the Welsh a premium for the privilige of flying thru CWL, if WG can afford an airport can they not afford a tour operator to offer the travelling Welsh, even if they only travel once per year, a value for money product without overcharging them.

Yes, that tour operator/airline shall need to diversify in the quest for profit but then don't Welsh rugby ever play away?
Lets not let the facts get in the way of a bit of good old fashioned nationalism!
The reason holidays from CWL were more expensive than elsewhere was the fact that the charges made by CWL were higher and the CWL management were unwilling to reduce them.
Due to this added burden, the Welsh public voted with their wallets and flew out of BRS.
Result can be observed in the pax figures for BRS and CWL respectively for at least the last 20 years.

Did I really see a reference to FlyForBeanz up there? Lord above!!
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Old 28th Aug 2020, 00:03
  #1695 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
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Looks like KLM are making some cuts in September, the 09.45 departure has been cut with the exception of Mondays. So looks like Cardiff to Amsterdam will be 8 weekly in September.

Also reported elsewhere Eastern Airways have posted a new job advert for cabin crew at Cardiff Airport. It was posted 3 days ago.
Also Qatar Airways have a job advert for Senior Airport Services Agent posted a month ago.
So fingers crossed it'll be good news for CWL.

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Old 28th Aug 2020, 01:24
  #1696 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by macdo View Post
Lets not let the facts get in the way of a bit of good old fashioned nationalism!
The reason holidays from CWL were more expensive than elsewhere was the fact that the charges made by CWL were higher and the CWL management were unwilling to reduce them.
Due to this added burden, the Welsh public voted with their wallets and flew out of BRS.
Result can be observed in the pax figures for BRS and CWL respectively for at least the last 20 years.

Did I really see a reference to FlyForBeanz up there? Lord above!!
Facts?

OK, for any punters some mid-point between BRS & CWL it is six of one and a half dozen of the other which airport they choose but for punters west of Newport and up the valleys travelling to BRS is not going to be cheap, around 100 miles round trip from/to central Cardiff or what price public transport for one, two, three or four persons?

On the overall cost of a holiday CWL, the airport, can have very little impact, contributing to the cost of that holiday are the hotel and transfer costs, overheads of both tour operator and airline, aircraft hull costs, fuel, overflight charges, destination airport charges, I mean that there are so many individual costs incorporated in to the cost of a holiday CWL cannot possibly have more than a negligible impact upon that cost by their prices of landing, navigation, any aircraft parking and what it costs per passenger to check-in thru until boarding the aircraft, I cannot imagine would get even close to financing the costs of travelling to/from BRS.

When these airlines, loco's in particular, squeeze the airport for reduced charges do you think that they are passing those reduced charges on to the passenger, of course a loco business model is 'cheap', I operate such a low cost business model myself, I search around for the best prices on supplies to calculate what I need to charge the customer but generally supplier cost savings serve to increase operator profits rather than customer savings, an example of this is in the past couple of years I changed to LED light bulbs to achieve a 22% reduction in the wattage of my business's lighting, do you think that saving has been passed on to the customer, no it hasn't, that has served to only reduce overheads increasing profits.

So if the costs of holidays are significantly higher from CWL then that is the tour operator charging the premium and cannot be blamed upon the airport, I've just checked KLM's fares from both BRS & CWL and they are charging the same base fare for both.

Comparing BRS & CWL's passenger figures serves no constructive purpose, rule no.2 of business is to concentrate on your own business and not what others are doing, so long as BRS have the clientele airlines then they shall always have the more passengers and that has nothing to do with CWL's charges, it is plain and simple geographic location.

Just look at BRS's catchment area, they've got Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, Avon, Gloucestershire, Wilshire and much of Dorset, I have friends who live in Swindon, whilst they consider BRS to be their local airport if BRS wasn't there then they'd head off the other way along the M4 to LHR, little if any chance that they would ever contemplate utilising CWL and similarly for the people of the south and west of England, little if any chance that they would ever drive north past BRS to cross the Severn before travelling back south again to CWL, BRS shall always win simply because of geographic location and that is something that CWL cannot compete with.

I'm sure that CWL management are focusing upon their business, kind of a shame that others continue to focus upon what's happening across the other side of the Severn!
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Old 28th Aug 2020, 06:27
  #1697 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Originally Posted by macdo View Post
Lets not let the facts get in the way of a bit of good old fashioned nationalism!
The reason holidays from CWL were more expensive than elsewhere was the fact that the charges made by CWL were higher and the CWL management were unwilling to reduce them.
Due to this added burden, the Welsh public voted with their wallets and flew out of BRS.
Result can be observed in the pax figures for BRS and CWL respectively for at least the last 20 years.

Did I really see a reference to FlyForBeanz up there? Lord above!!
What is this based upon? The age old tale of CWL's landing fees?
Given that some holidays can be at least £50 per passenger more expensive at CWL, but at the same time you can often find deals equally priced or even cheaper, is this just not simply supply and demand? As the flight fills up, the price fluctuates.
Surely the Airport charges can't be that much higher to warrant the likes of TUI whacking a £50+ pp premium on to a flight. Airport charges don't come anywhere close to the amount that would add up to per passenger per aircraft.
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Old 28th Aug 2020, 06:57
  #1698 (permalink)  
 
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Smaller bases are generally more expensive - always have been. Economies of scale.
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Old 28th Aug 2020, 08:54
  #1699 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Originally Posted by caaardiff View Post
What is this based upon? The age old tale of CWL's landing fees?
Given that some holidays can be at least £50 per passenger more expensive at CWL, but at the same time you can often find deals equally priced or even cheaper, is this just not simply supply and demand? As the flight fills up, the price fluctuates.
Surely the Airport charges can't be that much higher to warrant the likes of TUI whacking a £50+ pp premium on to a flight. Airport charges don't come anywhere close to the amount that would add up to per passenger per aircraft.
I'm afraid they do add up to such a premium. Unfortunately I have seen the management spreadsheets of the cost to run a base at CWL for what was a major operator in the past. CWL is expensive and the lack of economies of scale are an additional burden. The public are incredibly price sensitive, to the extent that they will travel further to make a perceived saving. As I said a few posts back, this has all been discussed over and over for the past 20 years. The proof of the pudding is in the pax numbers.
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Old 28th Aug 2020, 09:08
  #1700 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Originally Posted by OC37 View Post
Facts?


So if the costs of holidays are significantly higher from CWL then that is the tour operator charging the premium and cannot be blamed upon the airport, I've just checked KLM's fares from both BRS & CWL and they are charging the same base fare for both.


!
Sorry, not going down this ancient rabbit hole.

Just to address one point. KLM use their short haul services from regional airports as a loss leader to feed their long haul hub out of AMS. Nothing new again here, BA did it for years to LHR. LH to FRA etc etc.
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