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Prestwick-2

Old 30th Dec 2018, 14:11
  #221 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
The cost, time and inconvenience of having to fit and remove a ferry tank would be far more than simply scheduling an additional stop if the range was insufficient.
I found a performance chart for the original 800 which would probably have done both legs with fuel only loaded (showing over 5000 nms range). I also may have read the great circle distances from a Kilometre web-site while half asleep.😊
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Old 30th Dec 2018, 18:12
  #222 (permalink)  
 
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There's no need for extra fuel. Even the 800 can make it from Seattle to UK/Ireland non - stop so the Max can probably go an hour further if they wanted.
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Old 1st Jan 2019, 17:55
  #223 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...iness-46730491
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Old 1st Jan 2019, 23:33
  #224 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...iness-46730491

They now owe £38.4M to the Scottish Government, or more accurately, the taxpayer. Refuelling doing better but overall performance is weakening.
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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 02:48
  #225 (permalink)  
 
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Not sure how the botton line will get any better next year either more cuts to passenger ops and pay rises for staff.
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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 08:59
  #226 (permalink)  
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Not sure how anyone can make Prestwick successful again. Maybe if the promises APD cuts happen they might attract more Ryanair sun routes but I donít think there is any real term prospect of another passenger operator coming in.
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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 11:02
  #227 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot View Post
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...iness-46730491

They now owe £38.4M to the Scottish Government, or more accurately, the taxpayer. Refuelling doing better but overall performance is weakening.
True the debt to the Scottish Governmemt has gone up although this is within a planned loan agreement and my reading of the financials is that overall performance has improved with increases in refuelling, aviation related activities (FBO?), cargo and even PAX up by 4% although I doubt if thereís any profit in the 700k pax from FR. so revenues up and expenditure down (relative to increased revenue). Overall for me heading in the right direction and with the investment put in by the Scottish Governmemt this should allow extra business to be built up. The click is still ticking though as they need to start eating in to the debt or the secondary runway will be sold off to service that debt. Thereís enough solid and profitable aviation activity at PIK to maintain the airfield and the associated jobs although it remains to be seen whether PAX is sustainable
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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 17:30
  #228 (permalink)  
 
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they need to start eating in to the debt or the secondary runway will be sold off to service that debt. There’s enough solid and profitable aviation activity at PIK to maintain the airfield and the associated jobs although it remains to be seen whether PAX is sustainable
Agree 100%, if and only if the Terminal and it's high costs are removed from the equation. Ryanair are bringing nothing profitable to the table? I think that's fair?
The second runway has already been sold once before, PIK had to spend a lot of money to bring it back because they realised it was pretty essential in the frequent winter days when having a main runway at right angles to the prevailing wind wasn't helping. If they keep the terminal and close 03/21, then you're in a viscious circle leading to higher losses as a business model depending on fuel stops, training and ad hoc traffic isn't supported by an airport with a serious crosswind issue.
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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 18:26
  #229 (permalink)  
 
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Spaceport is gone... You'll hear no more about it with regards to PIK.
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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 18:33
  #230 (permalink)  
 
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The MOD site may well be sold off, there has been negotiations surrounding it. Reading the OPSCO minutes there does seem to be some things in the offing regarding the MOD site.
In one of the GPACC meetings it was stated that a Cyprus route was considered viable by another airline, best guess, Cobalt, but they've gone, along with discussions with an Eastern European airline who had concerns about competing with Ryanair.
It is difficult to see where an increase in passengers may come from to create a profitable passenger side of the business.
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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 19:46
  #231 (permalink)  
 
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Look at the PAX outlook for the year ahead. Their only daily route to BCN is gone completely during the winter and operating less than daily next summer. Gran Canaria was chopped for the winter. Malta and Fuerteventura are gone come the summer whilst they swapped the Polish routes from Rzeszow to Bydgoszcz so no actual gain. Alicante is operating at a reduced frequency as well.

Staff were recently granted a pay increase.

Thats going to put more pressure on other areas of the business in the next year.
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Old 2nd Jan 2019, 22:04
  #232 (permalink)  
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Sell 03/21? Sell an asset, why? Some of the nonsense you read on here is pretty unbelievable, for one it isn't in the "local plan" and doubt it ever would be, SAC are probably one of the worst councils in Scotland but I believe they're not THAT stupid.
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Old 3rd Jan 2019, 01:15
  #233 (permalink)  
 
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To be fair Inkjet I was through there a couple of months back, yes it was dead but it was low season, there is a W H Smiths and even an Elvis bar and a prayer room, but that looked unused.

In the US we have loads of airports that nobody uses and having been based in France it’s much the same, nobody bats an eyelid, civic pride and all that I guess.

Its one one of the few places in Europe where you can circuit bash without upsetting the locals and the views are fantastic, food is rubbish even by US standards but apart from that it would be a shame to see it close.
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Old 3rd Jan 2019, 13:29
  #234 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by INKJET View Post



Thereíre not really political statements, the problem is that all major infrastructure projects are political one way or another.
The simple fact is that PIK would have gone by now had not the ( Scottish ) state stepped in.
Airports donít work without passengers, this just looks like poring good money after bad, please tell me Iím wrong.
To paraphrase a famous son of Ayrshire, Bill Shankly, "Prestwick is not just a matter of profit and loss, it's far more important than that".
Airports can work without passengers, from what we hear it's the passenger side that is causing Prestwick's losses.
When an oil company has a crisis thousands of miles away and the heavyweight solution is in Aberdeen, you can either truck it down to an English airport or send it from the only Scottish airport that has the capability to handle it and a runway that will provide the range. If the crisis is in the North Sea and the equipment is in Houston it could be critical that a heavy freighter, or freighters, can be landed in Scotland. I've been on the receiving end of equipment lifts like this myself, so I know how important they are to the clients.
Seafood freight cargoes could form the backbone of a Scottish freight hub. I imagine the current Scottish Government have this in their vision.
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Old 4th Jan 2019, 13:02
  #235 (permalink)  
 
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I reckon a PAX operation out of an adapted portion of the present terminal could be achieved with the creation of a Museum of Flight in and around the remainder of the terminal. This could provide an ongoing profitable sub-business provided investment could be secured to ensure a decent number of exhibits and decent marketing. Basically, a Museum and pax terminal in the one building and with a direct rail link to both
I'm not sure how much museums make - most of them seem to be charities, and rely on government grants and subsidies to function. You'd be lucky to break even - you certainly couldnt build a profitable business based on one

so please tell me who is paying for PIK to stay open? because I donít see a business case, where are the private capital firms queuing up to bid, no sign of Canadian pension funds or French infrastructure investors, I havenít being to PIK in a decade, can some one show me a picture of whatís in the terminal, are there Next shops, Victoria secrets, sunglasses house, Jamieís Itialian, even a MacDonalds ?

Airports donít work without passengers, this just looks like poring good money after bad, please tell me Iím wrong.
Airports can work without passengers - there are plenty of functional airports dotted around the UK that have no passenger service. Most are maintenance hubs. The problem with PIK is it has a high cost base that was built up when it had a reasonably successful passenger operation. These costs need to be slashed as much as possible now, which is no easy task.

You're right though, as a business PIK isnt terribly viable, and that's why there are no investment firms queieng up to buy the airport. However, PIK also has a significant impact on the local economy, and that is why the Scottish Government have stepped in to invest in the airport. Not only are there airport related jobs to think about, but also the aviation industry in the surrounding area. Can you still run an aviation centre of excellence in South Airshire, if there is no airport on the doorstep? The advantage the scottish government has is they can look at the bigger picture - is it worth taking a small loss on running the airport in order to keep the local economy ticking through other means?

Seafood freight cargoes could form the backbone of a Scottish freight hub. I imagine the current Scottish Government have this in their vision.
I think most of this is already well catered by scheduled flights. Between the various US and Middle East airlines, the market is pretty well covered here. Besides, you dont need 747s to move fish - you can easily accommodate any such flights through EDI/GLA/ABZ.
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Old 4th Jan 2019, 14:19
  #236 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by nighthawk117 View Post
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I think most of this is already well catered by scheduled flights. Between the various US and Middle East airlines, the market is pretty well covered here. Besides, you dont need 747s to move fish - you can easily accommodate any such flights through EDI/GLA/ABZ.
Yes, that is so at the moment, but with Brexit looming and maybe Independence, the Scottish Government have to be prepared to cope with keeping what is a major export market functional.
This is how Norway see it,

https://www.aircargonews.net/news/airport/single-view/news/oslo-airports-fish-freight-volumes-are-flying.html

Last edited by Rob Royston; 4th Jan 2019 at 14:49.
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 09:16
  #237 (permalink)  
 
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I have fond memories of my training in PIK with my signet call sign ( CP surname was Swan hence signet ) very little commercial traffic other than circuit training, but even back then the limitations for single engine training were obvious with water on one side and significant terrain to the other. It might have the lowest fog risk of any UK airport but the cloud base is often low and whilst this meant that the training was realistic you could see a 6 week course become a 10 week course.

I guess thats why the signet flights now operate out of southern spain where the biggest weather risk is sun stroke.

Scotland has devolved responsibilty for airports including APD and could abolish APD at PIK to increase passenger numbers, GLA/EDI might object but reducing APD might be a fairer way of supporting PIK than a subsidy paid for by all tax payers.

I guess Scottish independence is likely at some stage in the future and most people in England take the view that it’s a matter for the people of Scotland alone to decide.

Of course if the UK leaves without a deal and Scotland becomes an independent state and re joins Europe would there not need to be hard border between England and Scotland?

On the subject of higher income taxes rates in Scotland is this based on where you live or where you work?
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 09:29
  #238 (permalink)  
 
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The SNP are a minority Government and can't abolish APD without support from the Greens which isn't forthcoming.The Tories and Labour simply oppose anything the SNP propose.
With the closure of Kinloss and Leuchars it surely is important to retain the Prestwick runway.
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 09:34
  #239 (permalink)  
 
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Scotland has devolved responsibilty for airports including APD and could abolish APD at PIK to increase passenger numbers, GLA/EDI might object but reducing APD might be a fairer way of supporting PIK than a subsidy paid for by all tax payers.
I'd like to see the legal advice on reducing APD at just one airport (which happened to be owned by the same body setting the tax level...). Don't follow the fairness point - isn't the general tax payer picking up the bill either way?
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Old 6th Jan 2019, 23:18
  #240 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB View Post
I'd like to see the legal advice on reducing APD at just one airport (which happened to be owned by the same body setting the tax level...). Don't follow the fairness point - isn't the general tax payer picking up the bill either way?
Argubaly yes but only if passengers travel from the airport whereas at the minute they pay whether passengers travel or not, travelling passengers generate other income through shops and car parks.

with regards treating EDI/GLA differently aren’t they doing that by subsidising PIK to stay open when commercially not viable?

If in the very very unlikely event that EDI & GLA we’re closed at short notice how many diverts could PIK handle, I suspect many would divert to NCL or MAN ahead of PIK.

Last edited by EIFFS; 6th Jan 2019 at 23:34.
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