Southend-2
Is SEN just getting standard grooving or will the runway be certified 'WSR'. Only a damp standard grooved runway can be considered dry for purposes of calculations. But WSR is a different beast and is prob required to keep the show on the road when the rain comes.
RYR quite happily operate in and out of Dortmund which has a LDA of 1700m, prob the shortest LDA in the existing network. But it has certification for WSR which makes a big difference.
The shortest I've operated quite a bit in to is in the region of 1800m and yes when wet and full pax its quite limiting in how much extra fuel one can have so 1600 is gonna be fun, especially combined with narrow runway ops!
RYR quite happily operate in and out of Dortmund which has a LDA of 1700m, prob the shortest LDA in the existing network. But it has certification for WSR which makes a big difference.
The shortest I've operated quite a bit in to is in the region of 1800m and yes when wet and full pax its quite limiting in how much extra fuel one can have so 1600 is gonna be fun, especially combined with narrow runway ops!
TCAS FAN
Maybe having a skid-resistant surface to supplement the grooving will improve the potential for A321 operations, although I do find GJ's statement surprising even so.
A321 will not see the light of day for Ops from SEN or SOU -
The 738 SFP does allow for an increased payload but NOT ''a full payload'' - so it will be interesting to see how long FR hangs around SEN when they have to divert or take £££crippling payload reductions
The 738 SFP does allow for an increased payload but NOT ''a full payload'' - so it will be interesting to see how long FR hangs around SEN when they have to divert or take £££crippling payload reductions
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So it's all looking so negative for the SEN operations. I assume heads will roll if it all goes tits up.
No not all negative at SEN - the A320 and the Neo's are doing well by all accounts - it's just the 737-800 and MAX and A321 are not the right fit for SEN until you add another 1000' ft or more of tarmac...
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However surely FR will have number crunched the 738sfp performance figures before announcing SEN as a base. After all the 737-800sfp has operated successfully for GOL out of Santos Dumont from a 4300 length of tarmac for many years.
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Well that can't happen, there isn't the land to do it, and even if there was the runway would have to be widened to comply with CAA regulations to take it into a different category.
However surely FR will have number crunched the 738sfp performance figures before announcing SEN as a base. After all the 737-800sfp has operated successfully for GOL out of Santos Dumont from a 4300 length of tarmac for many years.
Do I interpret your words as meaning that the 738 SFP will not be able to carry 189 pax off SEN's runway on the planned RYR network? If so I think you had better back that up with some figures to prove it. Personally I never think it wise to make such statements on PPRuNe unless you can back them up. Obviously we're not talking about departures from SEN at MTOW so what do your 'calculations' show as being the limiting RTOW at SEN in, say, ISA conditions?
Well that can't happen, there isn't the land to do it, and even if there was the runway would have to be widened to comply with CAA regulations to take it into a different category.
However surely FR will have number crunched the 738sfp performance figures before announcing SEN as a base. After all the 737-800sfp has operated successfully for GOL out of Santos Dumont from a 4300 length of tarmac for many years.
The 738/SFP allows one to take increased loads but NOT always necessarily MAX loads or accept high landing weights
GOL do not operate with 189 seats - more like 170 and not for mission lengths such as SEN-ACE or CFU - Ryanair have 189 seats on their fleet - FR will not take the hit on payload limits for long imho
The 738/SFP allows one to take increased loads but NOT always necessarily MAX loads or accept high landing weights
The 738/SFP allows one to take increased loads but NOT always necessarily MAX loads or accept high landing weights
Do I interpret your words as meaning that the 738 SFP will not be able to carry 189 pax off SEN's runway on the planned RYR network? If so I think you had better back that up with some figures to prove it. Personally I never think it wise to make such statements on PPRuNe unless you can back them up. Obviously we're not talking about departures from SEN at MTOW so what do your 'calculations' show as being the limiting RTOW at SEN in, say, ISA conditions?
A good friend is a skipper at D8/DI and flies both the 738 and MAX from LGW (I have mentioned this before on earlier posts if anyone has followed me)
He has crunched numbers for SOU and some SEN ops purely out of Interest (and for GIB too) and the payload limitations even for shorter flights simply are simply not economical - the hit of unsaleable seats out of the 189 maximum on some routes was crippling
I do see Glyn Jones SEN CEO upbeat on camera a few days ago saying he was wanting to woo airlines with 737-800 and A321 to come to SEN WHEN the runway is suitable.
Hmmn - that is commercial speak - same as the SOU MD speaking at their master plan unveiling saying the same.
Both SEN and SOU runways will never be suitable for such operations until a lot of work and money is spent.
Even then depending on an airlines own FOM and SOP they may still think that the airfields are simply too restrictive for A321 or 7378/MAX types.
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perhaps you may let me add old chap, thank you
A good friend is a skipper at D8/DI and flies both the 738 and MAX from LGW (I have mentioned this before on earlier posts if anyone has followed me)
He has crunched numbers for SOU and some SEN ops purely out of Interest (and for GIB too) and the payload limitations even for shorter flights simply are simply not economical - the hit of unsaleable seats out of the 189 maximum on some routes was crippling
I do see Glyn Jones SEN CEO upbeat on camera a few days ago saying he was wanting to woo airlines with 737-800 and A321 to come to SEN WHEN the runway is suitable.
Hmmn - that is commercial speak - same as the SOU MD speaking at their master plan unveiling saying the same.
Both SEN and SOU runways will never be suitable for such operations until a lot of work and money is spent.
Even then depending on an airlines own FOM and SOP they may still think that the airfields are simply too restrictive for A321 or 7378/MAX types.
A good friend is a skipper at D8/DI and flies both the 738 and MAX from LGW (I have mentioned this before on earlier posts if anyone has followed me)
He has crunched numbers for SOU and some SEN ops purely out of Interest (and for GIB too) and the payload limitations even for shorter flights simply are simply not economical - the hit of unsaleable seats out of the 189 maximum on some routes was crippling
I do see Glyn Jones SEN CEO upbeat on camera a few days ago saying he was wanting to woo airlines with 737-800 and A321 to come to SEN WHEN the runway is suitable.
Hmmn - that is commercial speak - same as the SOU MD speaking at their master plan unveiling saying the same.
Both SEN and SOU runways will never be suitable for such operations until a lot of work and money is spent.
Even then depending on an airlines own FOM and SOP they may still think that the airfields are simply too restrictive for A321 or 7378/MAX types.
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perhaps you may let me add old chap, thank you
A good friend is a skipper at D8/DI and flies both the 738 and MAX from LGW (I have mentioned this before on earlier posts if anyone has followed me)
He has crunched numbers for SOU and some SEN ops purely out of Interest (and for GIB too) and the payload limitations even for shorter flights simply are simply not economical - the hit of unsaleable seats out of the 189 maximum on some routes was crippling
.
A good friend is a skipper at D8/DI and flies both the 738 and MAX from LGW (I have mentioned this before on earlier posts if anyone has followed me)
He has crunched numbers for SOU and some SEN ops purely out of Interest (and for GIB too) and the payload limitations even for shorter flights simply are simply not economical - the hit of unsaleable seats out of the 189 maximum on some routes was crippling
.
Last edited by Planespeaking; 8th Jan 2019 at 21:25.
By the way, the runway length of Santos Dumont is 1,465m so comparing the GOL operation to that of RYR at SEN is somewhat tenuous.
I did not bring up the GOL comparison - I merely replied with some info that GOL and FR 738's and its operations are not vis a vis
We shall all await with much interest the FR operations out of SEN to come
We shall all await with much interest the FR operations out of SEN to come
But as an example -
On EZY A320 SEN to Canaries ACE TFS (180 or 186 seats) EZY do not sell 5-15 seats and accepts that as a 'hit' and the sector is still economical to market.
The figures for a 737-800 doing this mission were taking a hit approaching nearer 40 pax (out of SOU but a near example to SEN)
LGW-GIB was almost 60 pax. (we do not see the 738 used at GIB)
Flybe from SOU to JSI Skiathos, a charter for a holiday company (c200nm sector length more than CFU) using a 118 seater EMB 195 were restricted to selling only 97 seats (in both directions) flying non-stop both ways.
If a full load was to be taken then a fuel stop both at BRU out and Volos or SKG home would be needed, so a huge hit economically to take but operationally the full flight was totally restricted due meaning a 4 sector day for crewing, would prove near impossible for FTL hours (together with SOU closing before 2300 hours and some delayed flights had to divert into BOH because the flight was a late afternoon slot)
If anyone is looking for a job at SEN JOTA aviation have both an Ops controller and an Ops assistant jobs going
Nice little outfit - If I wasn't retired I might have liked that and be lured out lol
(ACMI airline BAE 146's/RJ's pax and cargo) Think small Titan!
Nice little outfit - If I wasn't retired I might have liked that and be lured out lol
(ACMI airline BAE 146's/RJ's pax and cargo) Think small Titan!
