Luton-9
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I don’t oppose the airport, never have done. Not a nimby either. What you don’t like are the plain facts of my post because it isn’t your view which is fair enough. It would be better for you to pull apart my argument with counter points and debate rather than make pointless posts because you haven’t the ability to challenge what I say.
I see Luton’s council tax is increasing by the maximum 4% allowed due to a shortfall caused by airport income now being diverted to pay interest payments on airport debts associated with expansion. I am sure you won’t mind paying the extra. If anyone thinks I am wrong then challenge me and I will link you to the council finance report that spells it out. This is the report the council hoped residents would not read but they were predicting trouble a year or two ago.
The dual carriageway for T2 is being funded by the council directly where they admit they cannot afford it and that project will have to be funded by council cutbacks. This is why this road still hasn’t been approved by councillors despite it getting planning permission a year ago to serve a business park where they forgot to mention that it would also need to serve the new terminal to make it viable.
I see Luton’s council tax is increasing by the maximum 4% allowed due to a shortfall caused by airport income now being diverted to pay interest payments on airport debts associated with expansion. I am sure you won’t mind paying the extra. If anyone thinks I am wrong then challenge me and I will link you to the council finance report that spells it out. This is the report the council hoped residents would not read but they were predicting trouble a year or two ago.
The dual carriageway for T2 is being funded by the council directly where they admit they cannot afford it and that project will have to be funded by council cutbacks. This is why this road still hasn’t been approved by councillors despite it getting planning permission a year ago to serve a business park where they forgot to mention that it would also need to serve the new terminal to make it viable.
Last edited by LTNman; 20th Feb 2020 at 13:35.
hatters_united....rather than just resort to personal insults open your eyes and take a good look at the financial mess that LBC have now managed to create in the name of speculative airport expansion. This isn't about Nimbyism....As a local tax payer and airport worker I want to see the airport thrive and remain a local asset. However, LBC are now simply well out of their depth trying to grapple with the finances which as they stand mean that local services will get cut and council tax bills will rise with no guarantees of any long term returns...
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hatters_united....rather than just resort to personal insults open your eyes and take a good look at the financial mess that LBC have now managed to create in the name of speculative airport expansion. This isn't about Nimbyism....As a local tax payer and airport worker I want to see the airport thrive and remain a local asset. However, LBC are now simply well out of their depth trying to grapple with the finances which as they stand mean that local services will get cut and council tax bills will rise with no guarantees of any long term returns...
Before you claim I don't know what airport noise and intrusion is like, I live just under the flight path about five miles out and work in aviation so know all about it myself.
You make no mention about the residents and communities that would be affected by increased passenger numbers that are presently protected by the existing planning permission. In your eyes they don’t matter. The planning committee is meant to way up all views and opinions before making a decision about an increase in numbers. The fact that they won’t is well known. You seem to be advocating that any planning permission should be ignored.
What about if a builder got planning permission to build a 1000 houses. You seem to be saying he should then be allowed to ignore that permission and build as many as he likes if the demand is there.
Also it isn’t the council deciding where people can fly to as it remains the airlines that pick and choose where they fly. They can introduce new services by dropping weak destinations. What has happened is that for this year only it stops new airlines coming to Luton. If you consider the fact that for years no new airline has wanted to come to Luton this isn’t a big deal.
Finally you mention more choices for passengers. Luton’s restrictions means that ELAL will fly from Stansted this summer so I assume you are delighted.
What about if a builder got planning permission to build a 1000 houses. You seem to be saying he should then be allowed to ignore that permission and build as many as he likes if the demand is there.
Also it isn’t the council deciding where people can fly to as it remains the airlines that pick and choose where they fly. They can introduce new services by dropping weak destinations. What has happened is that for this year only it stops new airlines coming to Luton. If you consider the fact that for years no new airline has wanted to come to Luton this isn’t a big deal.
Finally you mention more choices for passengers. Luton’s restrictions means that ELAL will fly from Stansted this summer so I assume you are delighted.
I appreciate your point of view, and as a Luton resident I can understand your reticence about further expansion, particularly as LBC seem to have made such a mess of the finances. However, the point I made was that the passenger cap per se has no effect on the local community. It makes no attempt to curtail freight flights, night flights, executive jet movements, and as such is intellectually bankrupt.
As for El Al, I'm sure they would rather keep all their North London operations together - as a smallish airline they are now serving three London airports - not really sustainable. I also suspect that the reason they moved from Stansted to Luton was the latter's proximity to the large North London Jewish population cluster.
I'm afraid I don't agree that your example of a housing developer is comparable. What would make that comparable would be the planners deciding that only 2000 people could live in the 1000 houses!
Feel free to contradict/comment - I know you have a fair and reasonable view of all matters LTN.
As someone else who has lived in the town until very recently and owe a lot to having an airport walking distance from my home, I can understand both points of view. I also use the airport 25-30 times a year.
The question - why have a cap. What is the aim here? An arbitrary cap for the sake of planning? To reduce ATMs? To make the airport a more tolerable experience for the traveller? To reduce pollution and increase QOL for the local community?
The arguments for sure have merit... although for me it is a bit pointless having an arbitrary cap - it doesn’t exactly reduce ATMs unless larger types are used. It also doesn’t allow for free market competition and increase opportunities for the local people it serves. The drop off zone improvements have helped immeasurably in comparison to the previous offerings albeit it is a mile to walk. The DART will be a worthwhile investment... eventually. What is wrong with the “ski jump” considering people were accusing the airport of constantly cheaping out?
I think what would help is a reduction or elimination of the drop off charge for local residents who have very little feasible public transport option. That would get people on side.
People also tend to forget that council tax rises are a result of central government policy. The airport keeps taxes lower than what it could have otherwise been. In Central Beds it is significantly higher for a worse service.
As to those voted into LBC - it is unfair for those on the council to have such a broad knowledge of policy brief... I certainly wouldn’t have a clue about social care! It is unfair to say those in St Albans are more knowledgeable. That said, having seen planning meetings in the past, it wouldn’t be unfair to say that some of them do not have the knowledge needed for the job.
The question - why have a cap. What is the aim here? An arbitrary cap for the sake of planning? To reduce ATMs? To make the airport a more tolerable experience for the traveller? To reduce pollution and increase QOL for the local community?
The arguments for sure have merit... although for me it is a bit pointless having an arbitrary cap - it doesn’t exactly reduce ATMs unless larger types are used. It also doesn’t allow for free market competition and increase opportunities for the local people it serves. The drop off zone improvements have helped immeasurably in comparison to the previous offerings albeit it is a mile to walk. The DART will be a worthwhile investment... eventually. What is wrong with the “ski jump” considering people were accusing the airport of constantly cheaping out?
I think what would help is a reduction or elimination of the drop off charge for local residents who have very little feasible public transport option. That would get people on side.
People also tend to forget that council tax rises are a result of central government policy. The airport keeps taxes lower than what it could have otherwise been. In Central Beds it is significantly higher for a worse service.
As to those voted into LBC - it is unfair for those on the council to have such a broad knowledge of policy brief... I certainly wouldn’t have a clue about social care! It is unfair to say those in St Albans are more knowledgeable. That said, having seen planning meetings in the past, it wouldn’t be unfair to say that some of them do not have the knowledge needed for the job.
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When local public services are being cut, as a direct result of the debt that LBC is carrying, clearly something very serious is wrong.
The only end that I can see, is the town having to sell THEIR airport to service the huge debts.
The airport was always seen by the Council as proud achievement and profits redirected into the community, now this very community is subsidising unprecedented debt levels being accrued, on speculation that a new franchisee will assume this debt in 2032!
The only end that I can see, is the town having to sell THEIR airport to service the huge debts.
The airport was always seen by the Council as proud achievement and profits redirected into the community, now this very community is subsidising unprecedented debt levels being accrued, on speculation that a new franchisee will assume this debt in 2032!
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I too was a resident for over 25 years and had benefited from one of the lowest shire rates (council tax) around.
The latest publish accounts for LBC I can find is for y/e 18/19. Looking at the Debt relating to Airport Debenture to LALL, interest charged then Share Dividend & rents going the other way I cannot see a great issue, they are servicing the Debt, but maybe I am seeing outdated information? I am no accountant either.
The Debenture seems to be mostly covered by the Special Infrastructure Rate Loan Scheme operated by Central Government at very favorable rates but had to be started before 2022 to qualify hence the hast to get the DART up and running before .........T2.
The latest publish accounts for LBC I can find is for y/e 18/19. Looking at the Debt relating to Airport Debenture to LALL, interest charged then Share Dividend & rents going the other way I cannot see a great issue, they are servicing the Debt, but maybe I am seeing outdated information? I am no accountant either.
The Debenture seems to be mostly covered by the Special Infrastructure Rate Loan Scheme operated by Central Government at very favorable rates but had to be started before 2022 to qualify hence the hast to get the DART up and running before .........T2.
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The question - why have a cap.
The arguments for sure have merit... although for me it is a bit pointless having an arbitrary cap - it doesn’t exactly reduce ATMs unless larger types are used. It also doesn’t allow for free market competition and increase opportunities for the local people it serves.
.
The current winter cap is a limit on ATM’s. This is to limit passengers while the summer cap is just a straight limit on passenger seats that can’t be got around by putting on larger aircraft. This have been introduced by the airport operator to comply with the airports planning permission.
The airport operator is not happy, LLAL is not happy and nor is the council but this is only a temporary measure while a planning application is going through that could have been submitted anytime rather than after the horse had bolted. I think people still have time to object before it goes to committee and gets approved.
The link lays out the emergency rules for summer 2020 where it states each airline will get an allocation of seats. This rule has resulted in EL AL moving its extra summer service to Stansted and maybe Wizz starting a Southend service and blocked any new airline operating a new route into LTN this year although to be honest new airlines have not exactly been flocking to Luton in recent years. It should also prevent one off charter flights like for football matches.
https://www.acl-uk.org/wp-content/up...-03OCT2019.pdf
Last edited by LTNman; 21st Feb 2020 at 11:28.
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Construction update
The remaining floors of the new multi-story have opened for half term. Those with even short memories will remember the gravel short term car park complete with pot holes and lakes. The 2 multi-storey car parks together with the indoor drop off area are transformational. The new car park sits higher than the existing car park due to the height of the ceilings in the drop off area.
I have been looking at the original time-scales for the Dart compared with current progress and it doesn't look good. The protect was started 6 months late but even adding 6 months to the following dates there will be some doubts about the Dart opening in 2021. The complete programme from enabling work until the first train is meant to be 245 weeks (just over 4.5 years) with many projects running simultaneously.
Parkway station protect was set at 60 weeks with a completion date of June 2019. In the foreground, as pointed out by a poster, the footbridge supports are being worked on. In the background the Gateway bridge is part covered in protective covers. This is a 53 week protect and was meant to be complete in May 2019
The new footbridge will be located opposite the hotel
Central station is down as a 59 week project which seems impossible and is meant to have been completed September 2019
This section of tunnel has a completion date of July 2019 and is meant to be a 32 week project.
Installation of the DART equipment and trains was meant to have started in October 2019 as part of a 73 week programme including 25 weeks of testing that is meant to start September 2020 for an opening date in April 2021. It's not going to happen and even allowing for the delayed start I can't see this opening in 2021
Luton trains under construction
I have been looking at the original time-scales for the Dart compared with current progress and it doesn't look good. The protect was started 6 months late but even adding 6 months to the following dates there will be some doubts about the Dart opening in 2021. The complete programme from enabling work until the first train is meant to be 245 weeks (just over 4.5 years) with many projects running simultaneously.
Parkway station protect was set at 60 weeks with a completion date of June 2019. In the foreground, as pointed out by a poster, the footbridge supports are being worked on. In the background the Gateway bridge is part covered in protective covers. This is a 53 week protect and was meant to be complete in May 2019
The new footbridge will be located opposite the hotel
Central station is down as a 59 week project which seems impossible and is meant to have been completed September 2019
This section of tunnel has a completion date of July 2019 and is meant to be a 32 week project.
Installation of the DART equipment and trains was meant to have started in October 2019 as part of a 73 week programme including 25 weeks of testing that is meant to start September 2020 for an opening date in April 2021. It's not going to happen and even allowing for the delayed start I can't see this opening in 2021
Luton trains under construction
Last edited by LTNman; 21st Feb 2020 at 10:03.
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EMR launch consultation on Dec 2020 timetable changes to bring in non stop Express service from St Pancras and direct services from Corby to Airport Parkway. With this comes a reduction of service to other stations to London & Luton Central, let the battles commence.
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The consultation is phoney as the Department of Transport made it a condition of the new franchise that 2 trains an hour to Corby would run with the first stop being LAP.
The council wanted 4 trains an hour so is putting on a brave face but 2 is better than 1. What has been established is that the non stop service will run from 6am to 10pm. The stock used will be 4 carriage 20 year old second hand trains that will be joined up to form up to 12 cars but there won't be the ability for passengers to walk from one end of the train to the other to find a seat as the drivers cabs will prevent this. On the positive side the 3+2 existing seating will be replaced with 2+2 seating with each seat getting a table.
I would assume this old stock will be replaced with walk through trains eventually but old trains linger on for years.
From the DoT.
East Midlands franchise then select London Corby
The council wanted 4 trains an hour so is putting on a brave face but 2 is better than 1. What has been established is that the non stop service will run from 6am to 10pm. The stock used will be 4 carriage 20 year old second hand trains that will be joined up to form up to 12 cars but there won't be the ability for passengers to walk from one end of the train to the other to find a seat as the drivers cabs will prevent this. On the positive side the 3+2 existing seating will be replaced with 2+2 seating with each seat getting a table.
I would assume this old stock will be replaced with walk through trains eventually but old trains linger on for years.
From the DoT.
East Midlands franchise then select London Corby
London - Corby
London - Corby
Benefits include:
- dedicated Corby - St Pancras express service will be introduced from December 2020 with 12-car trains in the peaks
- Corby - London service doubled to 2 trains per hour all day
- Kettering, Luton and Luton Airport Parkway services provided with 2 trains per hour for most of the day
- enhanced Sunday service throughout the route with regular direct Sunday services between London and Corby
- refurbished modern express trains from December 2020, with:
- increased capacity
- more reliable service
- improved comfort
- passenger information system
- free on-board Wi-Fi
- at-seat power sockets
- USB points
- air conditioning
- tables at all seats
- increased luggage space
- on-board cycle storage
Last edited by LTNman; 25th Feb 2020 at 07:12.
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Heard today that Wizzair timmimg capacity to Tel Aviv due to reduced demand, don't know if this is temporary, while I was searching for an article confirming there was a comment on whether the STN El Al was going to be necessary at all this summer. Things very unwell at El Al at the moment.
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I witnessed a strange event a couple of weeks ago concerning an Orthodox Jew at Luton. I went into the gents to have a pee and found a roughly 10 year old girl standing between the two rows of urinals while I assume her dad was in a trap having what sounded like a major kosher dump.
Feeling uncomfortable, as did others, I used the furthest urinal and turned around to find the girl was now using the urinal behind me as an armchair and was resting her hands and arms on the side of the porcelain. She was the perfect fit and it looked like she was sitting in a futuristic seating pod. I guess she had a wet arse when she stood up though.
Feeling uncomfortable, as did others, I used the furthest urinal and turned around to find the girl was now using the urinal behind me as an armchair and was resting her hands and arms on the side of the porcelain. She was the perfect fit and it looked like she was sitting in a futuristic seating pod. I guess she had a wet arse when she stood up though.
Last edited by LTNman; 2nd Mar 2020 at 05:29.
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I witnessed a strange event a couple of weeks ago concerning an Orthodox Jew at Luton. I went into the gents to have a pee and found a roughly 10 year old girl standing between the two rows of urinals while I assume her dad was in a trap having what sounded like a major kosher dump.
Feeling uncomfortable, as did others, I used the furthest urinal and turned around to find the girl was now using the urinal behind me as an armchair and was resting her hands and arms on the side of the porcelain. She was the perfect fit and it looked like she was sitting in a futuristic seating pod. I guess she had a wet arse when she stood up though.
Feeling uncomfortable, as did others, I used the furthest urinal and turned around to find the girl was now using the urinal behind me as an armchair and was resting her hands and arms on the side of the porcelain. She was the perfect fit and it looked like she was sitting in a futuristic seating pod. I guess she had a wet arse when she stood up though.