Monarch 4

[runway30]

Originally Posted by Skipness One Echo

Generally speaking, the crew landing the aircraft were on board at wheels up, this is not the case here IMHO. Saying "this airline failed because of me" equates to "I am useless do not employ me." Management of any business is a team effort and with Monarch, there are more than a few people who made decisions which in hindsight got us here. Many are long since gone. That does not mean that Mr Swaffield should take the blame for administration. If any of us think we could have done this differently, time to take the GMAT and get that MBA to show the world.

It is a fair observation that Monarch was a different scale to Ryanair and EasyJet but what I suggest is that you read the annual reports for Monarch Airlines Ltd. and Jet2.com Ltd. back to back and then tell me that nothing could have been done differently/better.

[old,not bold]

Still 'n all, £545 per seat, probably with a 99% load factor, from a 4S resort back to the UK, pays for a helluva lot of positioning and empty legs.

For some strange reason, it occurs to me to wonder whether the owners of Monarch have interests in any of the operators who are doing so nicely out of the Monarch collapse.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Some 20 years ago I was detached for a summer, with an A310, to Transavia, then pretty much owned by KLM and a charter holiday airline, it seems they have moved with the times and become a low cost carrier.

Monarch are from an era of such operators as British Air Ferries, British Caledonian, Laker Airways, Dan Air, Air Europe, Britannia, British Midland, British Island Airways and all the others that have popped up during the interim, British World Airlines, Sabre, Excel, Astraeus, Excalibur, TEA UK, Ambassador, Orion, Scottish Express, FlyGlobeSpan, Go, Buzz, Air UK etc. etc. etc.

Alas all good things come to an end and Monarch have excelled themselves, no pun intended, to last this long, they were primarily a holiday charter airline that tried to move with the times but alas they had two big bruvvers to contend with and they lost the fight!

[t1grm]

Originally Posted by Wycombe

It does sound like a lot, but you would have to think that finding this amount of capacity at such short notice doesn't come cheap.

Presumably the operators providing this capacity will have also factored in empty leg/positioning costs to get the aircraft to and from where they're needed.

It seems that there has been some consolidation going on, for example, I understand that Wamos operated into MAN yesterday, with pax that originally departed from BHX and LBA being bussed to their original starting point.

Fair comment but that does raise the question already asked; couldn't the CAA have paid the administrators to use Monarch aircraft and crew to do this more cheaply?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I've seen administrators/receivers try to do this elsewhere, in another industry.

"Hey mate, I know you're not getting paid for your last month's work, but we need you to do xxx, we'll bung you a handful of twenties[#] up front, OK?"

"Piss off sunshine, when you're ready to make good all my back pay as well here's my phone number, in the meantime I'm off to a job interview. Bye!"

[#] This was a long time ago.

[renort]

time to take the GMAT and get that MBA to show the world

Funny how the airline thrived in the pre-MBA era of leaders who had walked the walk, the last decade's crop of buzzword spouting experts have managed to drain all that hard work away whilst living in a vacuum of their own superiority.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

I honestly think I'd rather work for McDonalds than Ryanair.

... well maybe not - quite - but surely every self-respecting Monarch pilot will consider Ryanair the airline of least choice and, hopefully, funds permitting wait for ANY other opportunity to arise?

[anothertyke]

Originally Posted by old,not bold

Still 'n all, £545 per seat, probably with a 99% load factor, from a 4S resort back to the UK, pays for a helluva lot of positioning and empty legs.

For some strange reason, it occurs to me to wonder whether the owners of Monarch have interests in any of the operators who are doing so nicely out of the Monarch collapse.

Surely some of it will be to pay hotels, coaches, reps etc in the resorts. I can't imagine that will all have been paid for upfront. This is the price of an orderly retreat from the beaches.

[runway30]

I like to keep it simple. If something costs you 90p and you can sell for a £1 you have a business, if something costs you £1.10 and you can sell if for £1 then all the buzzwords and MBAs and consultants in the world are not going to stop you running out of money.

[milhouse999]

Originally Posted by t1grm

BBC says repatriation will cost £60 mil for 110,000 pax. That's an average of £545 per pax. Good job the CAA are not running an airline. They would go under before Monarch!

I think that's actually a very well achieved cost. They have effecively had to set up a repatriation airline at very short notice, they can't spread costs over years like an airline normally would, they needed immediate capacity, they have not exactly had time to shop around. Approaching Qatar wanting x aircraft NOW - that'll be £XX please.

The associated back office and transport costs will be built into that also.

[southside bobby]

SOE...."Management team efforts"...Yes obviously & needs no pointing out, same with any business..But surely would you not agree the top person retains the overall direction & decision making over the "team" in important matters..
Why challenge us with GMAT & MBA`s as obviously didn`t work here..

[southside bobby]

& just read the two posts above me & exactly what they say...

[MKY661]

Am I right in saying that Thomas Cook Airlines is now the oldest UK Holiday Charter airline? Everyone before that seems to be no longer operating.

[lederhosen]

There is also the cost of last year's abortive rescue exercise. I remember seeing the United 747 in Palma that was apparently flown over from the states ready to bring stranded pax home. Maybe that is included in the total?

[toledoashley]

I would have thought TUI/Thomson/Britannia - its the same airline, so I would have thought that was the oldest?

Thomas Cook was made up of Caledonian and Flying Colours into JMCAir, so not really one airline.

[MKY661]

Did the CAA ever say those flight were for Monarch though? I believe it was just referred to as a Shadow Airline but maybe they will bring more information about this.

[Skipness One Echo]

Funny how the airline thrived in the pre-MBA era of leaders who had walked the walk, the last decade's crop of buzzword spouting experts have managed to drain all that hard work away whilst living in a vacuum of their own superiority.

Oh that's unfair, the travel business is a lot more complex now. People have way more options. Remember Adam Thompson's BCAL was close to closure at the end and bailed out by BA and Laker's return to the atlantic market was a failure as he flew ageing DC10s against 767s and A340s. Harry Goodman's Air Europe failed in spectacular fashion as they changed direction too quickly. Jet2 started in a different place, Monarch had a degree of "class" that Jet2 never tried to aim for, not a criticism. Jet2 also have Dart Group backing with deep pockets, something Monarch lost.
I know a lot of MBA's who I wouldn't trust to run a bath BUT I also know some incredibly talented and brilliant MBA's as well, they tend not to work in aviation for obvious reasons alas.

Am I right in saying that Thomas Cook Airlines is now the oldest UK Holiday Charter airline?

More scheduled now as well, but turned around after a torrid few years.

[renort]

If you had encountered any of the top floor dwellers of the last ten years, and their cronies, you'd know that was entirely fair. None of them could hold a candle to previous Management who'd worked, not talked, their way to the top. You talk about the business changing, but the very reason this situation has come about is because the highly paid buzzword aficionados didn't move with the times. AS talked about trying to "pivot" the business in his farewell address. If ever there was an indicator...he knows the latest fluffy jargon for changing business direction, but didn't know how to do it, so had to invite consultants in who didn't find the answer...

I absolutely guarantee there were some smart minds on the lower floors and flight decks of Monarch who could have told you where they were going wrong, but as they don't have the right letters after their name couldn't possibly be right.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Harry

Monarch are from an era of such operators as British Air Ferries, British Caledonian, Laker Airways, Dan Air, Air Europe, Britannia, British Midland, British Island Airways and all the others that have popped up during the interim, British World Airlines, Sabre, Excel, Astraeus, Excalibur, TEA UK, Ambassador, Orion, Scottish Express, FlyGlobeSpan, Go, Buzz, Air UK etc.

I've worked for 7 of the above great memories - now days its hard work

[lee757]

Its just beyond the joke.

The CAA/Andrew Haines states they were putting together contingency plans for 4.5 weeks before. To be doing that they must have had pretty big warning flags. All the while ZB management at setting up other companies, announcing they're going long haul and conducting yet another strategic review.

Really greybull wont have wanted to stump up the money last year which is why its dragged on and as nothing has improved this year the sum of its parts will have clearly tipped the balance - especially given Swaffield confirmed it wasn't/isn't insolvent.

If ZB was projecting 100 MIL loss you dont just predict that over a period of 4 weeks. Nor do you fix it over a 4 week period. I wonder how much of that relates to costs involved in changing to the max and increased lease costs vs the airbus fleet too.
You have to wonder just how uncompetitive MON was- staff taking a 30% pay cut - it benefited from better supplier terms in 2014 etc. Lots of goodwill just wasted and where did these advantages go?

It will be hugely interesting to see where the money & expenses drained out of of ZB to make it so uncompetitive - especially by way of greybull who i don't believe wont recoup their investment. They've done similar with multiple companies (m local, comet etc).

Essentially its probably been more profitable to just dump the staff and all the pension liabilities. Mantagazza's also need looking at why they sold it for a nominal amount - clearly just to offload it. Something seriously wrong in the UK where you can just offload a business and all the responsibilities knowing in all likelihood its going to go bust (BHS example).

Also i bet they weren't trying to sell it for a nominal fee last week to save the jobs and all the passengers etc. I bet EZY, Norwegian, BA etc would have bought it for a quid.

An airline needs investment especially if it needs turning around, its not a short term project of a couple of years, especially if you dont have a direction and are forced to live on a hand to mouth. Last years ATOL renewal fiasco also damaged them so it was obvious it would need additional help. Instead they've wasted the last year and come back to the conclusion that the stuff they dumped in 2014 is where they should have been focused.

The directors and greybull should be totally ashamed.