Flybe - 8
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It is not a direct quote, so it could just as well be an interpretation by ST based on the fact that Flybe is konwn for its large Q400 fleet.
Generally speaking, the Embraer 195 will need to find new work at some point. Most of the new services from CWL, DSA etc. will hardly continue once the "partnership" with the airports comes to an end and the E95s would need to earn money on a purely commercial basis. They would be a good fit for domestic services from LHR.
Generally speaking, the Embraer 195 will need to find new work at some point. Most of the new services from CWL, DSA etc. will hardly continue once the "partnership" with the airports comes to an end and the E95s would need to earn money on a purely commercial basis. They would be a good fit for domestic services from LHR.
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Apologies in advance for asking and not researching !
How many Embraers do flybe have now and are they "stuck" with them in the fleet for the foreseeable future / next few years ?
How many Embraers do flybe have now and are they "stuck" with them in the fleet for the foreseeable future / next few years ?
Join Date: Feb 2004
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11 no 175 series and 9 no 195 series.
They swapped something around 30 delivery slots with Republic for their used Dash 8 -400Q frames and have also deposed of 5 no 195 series frame.
They swapped something around 30 delivery slots with Republic for their used Dash 8 -400Q frames and have also deposed of 5 no 195 series frame.
If Flybe do use an E175 or E195 into Heathrow, their landing charges will be double those of a BA Airbus A319. The landing charge at LHR is calculated by taking the margin versus the Chapter 3 or 4 certification criteria for an aircraft of that size. The BA A319s achieve a 20.1EPNdB margin, placing them in the "Chapter 4 low" category at £880 for a daytime landing. The Flybe Embraers achieve 14.9 or 11.1 for the 195 or 175 respectively, putting both in the "Chapter 4 high" category at £1,760 for a daytime landing. With nine landings a day, that tots up to just short of £3m per year in extra landing charges for the Embraers versus a BA A319.
Using the turboprops - which fall in the same noise category as the A319 - is the least bad option. 78 seats for £880 = £11.28 per seat for landing fees. For the E175, it's £20 per seat or E195 at £14.91 per seat. Ouch.
Still not sure it's a sensible move on the Q400, E175 or E195 though!
Using the turboprops - which fall in the same noise category as the A319 - is the least bad option. 78 seats for £880 = £11.28 per seat for landing fees. For the E175, it's £20 per seat or E195 at £14.91 per seat. Ouch.
Still not sure it's a sensible move on the Q400, E175 or E195 though!
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Chesty Morgan wrote:
Is it not largely irrelevant of the £5K per day lease cost (assuming that there are not other more lucrative routes to deploy them on), am I correct in saying that this cost is in place irrespective of whether the aircraft fly or not? This is one of the big challenges for Flybe, the heavy cost of these aircraft.
The whole issue of comparison and viability of the aircraft i.e. v 319 etc. only comes into question when the lease ends, i.e. Flybe deciding to evaluate keeping them on for the route.
How long would Flybe need to keep the slots for in order to be the owners of said slots, at which point these are financially attractive? Hence, could be sold on, so sustaining a loss in the short terms could in overall terms be a worthwhile investment.?
Surprising that Flybe are only on to this now. I cannot help but wonder if there if there is a significant for Belfast City Airport in this....
At 5 grand a day lease cost the 195 is way more expensive than a 319. I don't think the slightly lower landing fee (if it actually is) would make much difference.
Is it not largely irrelevant of the £5K per day lease cost (assuming that there are not other more lucrative routes to deploy them on), am I correct in saying that this cost is in place irrespective of whether the aircraft fly or not? This is one of the big challenges for Flybe, the heavy cost of these aircraft.
The whole issue of comparison and viability of the aircraft i.e. v 319 etc. only comes into question when the lease ends, i.e. Flybe deciding to evaluate keeping them on for the route.
How long would Flybe need to keep the slots for in order to be the owners of said slots, at which point these are financially attractive? Hence, could be sold on, so sustaining a loss in the short terms could in overall terms be a worthwhile investment.?
Surprising that Flybe are only on to this now. I cannot help but wonder if there if there is a significant for Belfast City Airport in this....
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How many more times the remedy slots may only be used for Aberdeen/Edinburgh/Nice, Moscow or Riyadh !
For I believe six consecutive seasons and then can varied to include any other EU point.
They cannot be auctioned sub-leased or used for long haul.
If they close during the six season period they revert to BA and the regulator re advertises them from the following season.
For I believe six consecutive seasons and then can varied to include any other EU point.
They cannot be auctioned sub-leased or used for long haul.
If they close during the six season period they revert to BA and the regulator re advertises them from the following season.
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Thank you rutankrd, point taken on which routes, though it is surprising given the amount of analysis on the lack of connectivity between LHR and the domestic points that they couldn't get them reassigned to other UK airports, e.g. Teesside, Newquay etc.
Are you saying that in say 4 years time these slots are still not permitted to be sold on even if Flybe have completed the required number of seasons on the routes..?
Are you saying that in say 4 years time these slots are still not permitted to be sold on even if Flybe have completed the required number of seasons on the routes..?
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Fleet utilisation
El Bunto
The WDL seems to be cover for the 175's.
Two 175's at Manchester have now flown for nearly a week and another had a late start today plus a 4th at BHX having a late start.
The Q400's are busy with just one out of service since 23 March and a couple of late starts for two today and one on the ground at BHX since yesterday lunchtime.
The BHX schedule was a bit of as mess at the weekend at times but only a couple of cancellations and in general they got most flights out.
Sources: FR24, Libhomeradar & airline & airport websites
Pete
The WDL seems to be cover for the 175's.
Two 175's at Manchester have now flown for nearly a week and another had a late start today plus a 4th at BHX having a late start.
The Q400's are busy with just one out of service since 23 March and a couple of late starts for two today and one on the ground at BHX since yesterday lunchtime.
The BHX schedule was a bit of as mess at the weekend at times but only a couple of cancellations and in general they got most flights out.
Sources: FR24, Libhomeradar & airline & airport websites
Pete
Last edited by OltonPete; 11th Apr 2016 at 14:29. Reason: added text
Thank you rutankrd, point taken on which routes, though it is surprising given the amount of analysis on the lack of connectivity between LHR and the domestic points that they couldn't get them reassigned to other UK airports, e.g. Teesside, Newquay etc.
Virgin Atlantic could not make these larger routes work in a JV with Delta Airlines, one of the largest and strongest airlines on Earth. Quite how flybe think they can balance the books operating point to point into a very busy and congested airport where they have no presence is beyond me.
if BE were to have a go at the "lesser" i.e. more fragile and less profitable markets like say a small town in Cornwall or a dying airport that's not quite near Durham I have no idea. Their foray into LCY saw as many routes fail as succeed.
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Barling Magna - the Q400 is not a small turboprop, it has a larger seating capacity than some jet aircraft that regularly visit LHR. In regard to approach speed, it is considerably more flexible than a jet and can, within the bounds of "stabilised approach" criteria, stay faster for longer due to the massive braking effect of those props.
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Actually might not be as crazy as it first sounds...they have a lot of codeshare partners and have just added VS to that bunch and their core market is UK domestic flying. They will already have corporate contracts in place for their LCY flying and this could easily complement that. Assuming they don't bleed too much, after 3 years they have however many slot pairs to sell at £20-30m a pair. You'd have to go some to bleed that amount of cash on a prop operation.
Did multiple codeshares work well for BMI? Alas no, not even Lufthansa could fix that.
Virgin had a succesful network for onward connections with Little Red? Sadly not, couldn't attract enough point to point.
This is a batty idea, it really is. Flybe codeshare at MAN with the likes of Etihad but what's the point in Etihad diluting their own MAN traffic over LHR with Flybe?
Virgin had a succesful network for onward connections with Little Red? Sadly not, couldn't attract enough point to point.
This is a batty idea, it really is. Flybe codeshare at MAN with the likes of Etihad but what's the point in Etihad diluting their own MAN traffic over LHR with Flybe?
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Skipness,
You are spot on here. Flybe making another random hairbrain idea. The only condition under which this operation can be justified is based on being able to sell the slots at the end of the appropriate period, but another poster suggests that this is not permitted.
I'd expect BA to respond to such a move, not least competing heavily for the traffic on point to point but in the remaining LCY routes jointly served.
Bmi was synonymous with LHR and domestic flying and they struggled, not least due to the sheer level of taxes and charges on departures out of LHR. Hence, Flybe will struggle to compete with easyJet, Ryanair etc on a London basis for point to point.
Such a plan to enter LHR is in my view commercial suicide.
EI-BUD
You are spot on here. Flybe making another random hairbrain idea. The only condition under which this operation can be justified is based on being able to sell the slots at the end of the appropriate period, but another poster suggests that this is not permitted.
I'd expect BA to respond to such a move, not least competing heavily for the traffic on point to point but in the remaining LCY routes jointly served.
Bmi was synonymous with LHR and domestic flying and they struggled, not least due to the sheer level of taxes and charges on departures out of LHR. Hence, Flybe will struggle to compete with easyJet, Ryanair etc on a London basis for point to point.
Such a plan to enter LHR is in my view commercial suicide.
EI-BUD
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Also it should be noted that while various of the LHR carriers want feed, they won't pay what is necessary for it - domestic pro-rates are notoriously low, whether actual pro-rated or fixed fee. If that accounts for 50% of your traffic you're not making a profit ant time soon. A cynic might suggest that this story is more about giving the share price a short term boost.
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Flybe winter sun from NWI has been loaded now,
Alicante continues 2x weekly Mon and Fri
Malaga goes to 1x weekly on Sundays,
Also means the Exeter route will be on the E-jet
Alicante continues 2x weekly Mon and Fri
Malaga goes to 1x weekly on Sundays,
Also means the Exeter route will be on the E-jet
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No alliance, could get random terminal, not great aircraft size availability, poor reliability in the industry, possibly cherry pick Edinburgh only... mmm interesting. Though theyve bumped up LCY domestic a fair bit when some said that wouldnt last.
Did multiple codeshares work well for BMI? Alas no, not even Lufthansa could fix that.
Virgin had a succesful network for onward connections with Little Red? Sadly not, couldn't attract enough point to point.
Virgin had a succesful network for onward connections with Little Red? Sadly not, couldn't attract enough point to point.
Not convinced this will happen.
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I believe that Luxair was the last scheduled operator into Heathrow with turboprops ( Q400s, coincidentally ) until BAA 'suggested' that they release the slots or put something bigger and / or faster on them. They now operate to City.
KLM also had F50s on the Eindhoven service until around the same time.
I'm not so old but I even remember Sheds at Heathrow! Air UK and Manx I think.
KLM also had F50s on the Eindhoven service until around the same time.
I'm not so old but I even remember Sheds at Heathrow! Air UK and Manx I think.