MANCHESTER 1
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Surely the AA B787 would need to be a feature at MAN for it to be considered a swap.
Currently, we are talking about swapping a BA machine (whether it be B777/B787 or otherwise) for an outdated AA B767 which still doesn't feature the basics like seat back TV's. Even low cost airlines feature that, hence why airlines like TCX are eating AA's dinner.
I mean, Christ, the AA flights struggle to even leave their point of origin for Manchester these days, and the ones that do are horrendously delayed. Seems to me basing the aircraft at the other end of the route might be a good antidote to the unreliable service!
Currently, we are talking about swapping a BA machine (whether it be B777/B787 or otherwise) for an outdated AA B767 which still doesn't feature the basics like seat back TV's. Even low cost airlines feature that, hence why airlines like TCX are eating AA's dinner.
I mean, Christ, the AA flights struggle to even leave their point of origin for Manchester these days, and the ones that do are horrendously delayed. Seems to me basing the aircraft at the other end of the route might be a good antidote to the unreliable service!
Last edited by LAX_LHR; 4th Jun 2017 at 20:03.
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There is no doubt that the present AA service is less than optimal. I don't think anyone expects the latest and greatest in AAs inventory but, as has been noted extensively, punctuality remains the major issue.
Also, the hard product is not great. Compare AA with the likes of SQ, CX, EY, EK, QR, HU - all of which perform well at
MAN. Perhaps a better product would stimulate growth, but as things stand TCX are the airline grabbing market share. On a smaller scale, SQ are also grabbing market share to IAH and beyond.
I don't know enough to say what the answer is, but the status quo is only going to end up with an AA withdrawal from MAN sooner or later.
Also, the hard product is not great. Compare AA with the likes of SQ, CX, EY, EK, QR, HU - all of which perform well at
MAN. Perhaps a better product would stimulate growth, but as things stand TCX are the airline grabbing market share. On a smaller scale, SQ are also grabbing market share to IAH and beyond.
I don't know enough to say what the answer is, but the status quo is only going to end up with an AA withdrawal from MAN sooner or later.
Also, the hard product is not great. Compare AA with the likes of SQ, CX, EY, EK, QR, HU - all of which perform well at
MAN.
MAN.
Surely QR will want transit passengers more than ever(excluding obviously those 5 countries)
Anyway, plenty of speculation and theories about that on the R&N and Middle East forums....
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Surely the AA B787 would need to be a feature at MAN for it to be considered a swap.
Currently, we are talking about swapping a BA machine (whether it be B777/B787 or otherwise) for an outdated AA B767 which still doesn't feature the basics like seat back TV's. Even low cost airlines feature that, hence why airlines like TCX are eating AA's dinner.
I mean, Christ, the AA flights struggle to even leave their point of origin for Manchester these days, and the ones that do are horrendously delayed. Seems to me basing the aircraft at the other end of the route might be a good antidote to the unreliable service!
Currently, we are talking about swapping a BA machine (whether it be B777/B787 or otherwise) for an outdated AA B767 which still doesn't feature the basics like seat back TV's. Even low cost airlines feature that, hence why airlines like TCX are eating AA's dinner.
I mean, Christ, the AA flights struggle to even leave their point of origin for Manchester these days, and the ones that do are horrendously delayed. Seems to me basing the aircraft at the other end of the route might be a good antidote to the unreliable service!
I'm not arguing the service couldn't be improved. Clearly it can.
Today it doesn't support an AA 788.
763/752 is their preferred choice. Capital expired equipment on extended run-out is what the route will support.
On this route AA and BA are effectively the same airline. There's no sensible reason to suppose they have significantly different cost structures for the same airframe. That would break the JV.
New equipment is expensive.
If the route doesn't support an AA 788 today, why on earth would it support a BA 788?
If it will support a 788 tomorrow, why does it matter who operates it?
Last edited by pilot9249; 6th Jun 2017 at 00:20.
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Why does it matter who operates it?
Well, despite what you think, there may be very different cost structures involved for a start. Just because both airlines operate a B788, does not mean it costs the same for each airline to operate it, not by a long shot.
Crew costs are different, maintence costs may be completely different, fuel prices may be different and so on. Usually, labour is the main cost difference, and labour costs in the US are usually higher on legacy long haul airlines, if it mattered, then why do you think Delta swapped out for Virgin on both Manchester routes, and did the same on a fair few LHR routes also? After all, with your reasoning, both VS and DL operate the A330, so no sensible reason that the costs are different, surely?
Lastly, reputation may be another reason. Most pax on AA originate in the Manchester end, and many people will have booked the flights via a BA source. It will therefore beBA having its name tarnished by the shoddy OTP too.
Well, despite what you think, there may be very different cost structures involved for a start. Just because both airlines operate a B788, does not mean it costs the same for each airline to operate it, not by a long shot.
Crew costs are different, maintence costs may be completely different, fuel prices may be different and so on. Usually, labour is the main cost difference, and labour costs in the US are usually higher on legacy long haul airlines, if it mattered, then why do you think Delta swapped out for Virgin on both Manchester routes, and did the same on a fair few LHR routes also? After all, with your reasoning, both VS and DL operate the A330, so no sensible reason that the costs are different, surely?
Lastly, reputation may be another reason. Most pax on AA originate in the Manchester end, and many people will have booked the flights via a BA source. It will therefore beBA having its name tarnished by the shoddy OTP too.
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Why would AA waste a long haul B788 on one of their shortest (and least important) transatlantic routes? AA have based their B788 fleet at ORD, LAX and DFW, flying routes such as ORD-PVG and LAX-AKL that need to be operated by the B788 and not the B763. The only European routes served by the B788 are their flagship ORD-LHR and the occasional ORD-BCN.
I would say that MAN is at the bottom of AA's list of airports that require an upgrade to the B788.
Also, there's no chance that BA would operate the route. Basing an aircraft at MAN would be wholly inefficient, and AA are in a much better position to operate flights to MAN from their side of the Atlantic.
I would say that MAN is at the bottom of AA's list of airports that require an upgrade to the B788.
Also, there's no chance that BA would operate the route. Basing an aircraft at MAN would be wholly inefficient, and AA are in a much better position to operate flights to MAN from their side of the Atlantic.
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Given that oversight, as well as calling MAN-ORD one of their 'shortest routes', I'll leave it there in poking holes in your other statements.
Last edited by LAX_LHR; 6th Jun 2017 at 02:44.
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I said that the only European routes regularly served by the B788 are LHR and BCN, not that those were the only European routes that would ever be operated by the B788. AA want to use their modern aircraft on their flagship routes. All of the routes you mentioned above are IAG hubs - they seem pretty important to me. MAN is not a key destination in the IAG/oneworld network, so I can't see it being regularly served by the B788 for the foreseeable future.
At only 3,826 miles, ORD-MAN is one of AA's shortest transatlantic routes. The fact that the B752 can operate the route is proof of this. It makes a lot more sense for AA to use the B763 and B752 on ORD-MAN instead of wasting a B788 which has the ability to reach PVG etc.
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The B788 was regularly scheduled last summer, so it was more than once or twice.
So tell me, if the B788 is optimal for PVG etc, then why 'waste' it on LHR etc too, when the B777 has the capacity and cabins, especially the B77W to operate said routes? Surely LHR is just as 'short' a route as MAN?
Also, you say MAN is not a key destination from OR, well, it must mean something to AA for it to have been operated since 1985 with just seasonal breaks while bigger cities have been cut.
Seems to me you are one of those who have a downer on MAN and feel we should get back in line as a regional airport that's lucky to have long haul.....
So tell me, if the B788 is optimal for PVG etc, then why 'waste' it on LHR etc too, when the B777 has the capacity and cabins, especially the B77W to operate said routes? Surely LHR is just as 'short' a route as MAN?
Also, you say MAN is not a key destination from OR, well, it must mean something to AA for it to have been operated since 1985 with just seasonal breaks while bigger cities have been cut.
Seems to me you are one of those who have a downer on MAN and feel we should get back in line as a regional airport that's lucky to have long haul.....
American B767s are nearing the end of their lives with many being retired already and the
B757 struggles on ORD to MAN especially when the jetstreams are strong and many a time
have to divert for fuel.The B787 is the ideal aircraft but coming off a Tokyo flight andif late
hit major problems as MAN was the last Europe departure with no other aircraft to put on the flight
either ended up with huge delays or a cancellation with the passengers
stick in ORD or having to fly via JFK and LHR which is far from ideal
B757 struggles on ORD to MAN especially when the jetstreams are strong and many a time
have to divert for fuel.The B787 is the ideal aircraft but coming off a Tokyo flight andif late
hit major problems as MAN was the last Europe departure with no other aircraft to put on the flight
either ended up with huge delays or a cancellation with the passengers
stick in ORD or having to fly via JFK and LHR which is far from ideal
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Flybe sorting out it's Scottish routes:
Flybe Agreement with Eastern Airways - RNS - London Stock Exchange
6 June 2017
Flybe Agreement with Eastern Airways
Flybe Group plc ("Flybe") announces that it has signed Heads of Terms with Eastern Airways (UK) Limited ("Eastern") to establish a new alliance:
1. a five-year franchise agreement in which Eastern will operate its scheduled route network under the Flybe brand; and
2. a joint revenue and risk sharing agreement, covering four Eastern aircraft, to fly existing Flybe branded routes from Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Manchester. The four aircraft will be operated under the Flybe franchise and significantly improve connectivity for Scotland.
The aim is for contracts to be finalised and signed within the next few weeks. However, tickets will go on sale immediately and flights will start operating under the new arrangements from September 2017.
Eastern is a well-established UK based regional airline, whose head office is at Humberside Airport and who operates scheduled domestic and short haul international services and private charter services, with hubs at Aberdeen, Norwich, Teesside, Newcastle, Southampton, Leeds, Cardiff and Paris.
Christine Ourmieres-Widener, Flybe CEO said "This alliance with Eastern Airways is an excellent opportunity to strengthen the Flybe network. We already operate flights at a number of common airports and this will enable passengers to connect to a greater number of destinations, across the UK and into Europe, all booked through Flybe.com. Eastern will operate routes from Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Manchester to offer an enhanced service to passengers based in Scotland and travelling to Scotland. Combined with our flights to Heathrow from Edinburgh and Aberdeen, this demonstrates our strong commitment to serving Scotland.
Richard Lake, Chief Executive of Eastern Airways, said: "This alliance will benefit both airlines as not only does it strengthen Flybe's network, but broadens our distribution and enhances connection opportunities for our customers through its global airline association. We have specialised in fixed-wing flying in the oil and gas market for many years and our expertise will provide a greater opportunity to further develop offshore connectivity to Flybe's network."
Notes to editor:
Flybe announced on 21 November 2016 that the franchise agreement with Loganair to fly under the Flybe brand would be discontinued from the end of August 2017. Eastern Airways will operate some of these routes, namely Aberdeen-Sumburgh, Glasgow-Sumburgh, Edinburgh-Sumburgh, Glasgow-Manchester, Aberdeen-Kirkwall, and Glasgow-Stornoway under the Flybe franchise agreement from 1 September 2017.
In addition to the above routes, the Eastern scheduled network to be available to book on Flybe.com from 1st of September will include routes between Aberdeen, Norwich, Teesside, Newcastle, Southampton, Leeds, Cardiff and Paris
Flybe Agreement with Eastern Airways
Flybe Group plc ("Flybe") announces that it has signed Heads of Terms with Eastern Airways (UK) Limited ("Eastern") to establish a new alliance:
1. a five-year franchise agreement in which Eastern will operate its scheduled route network under the Flybe brand; and
2. a joint revenue and risk sharing agreement, covering four Eastern aircraft, to fly existing Flybe branded routes from Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Manchester. The four aircraft will be operated under the Flybe franchise and significantly improve connectivity for Scotland.
The aim is for contracts to be finalised and signed within the next few weeks. However, tickets will go on sale immediately and flights will start operating under the new arrangements from September 2017.
Eastern is a well-established UK based regional airline, whose head office is at Humberside Airport and who operates scheduled domestic and short haul international services and private charter services, with hubs at Aberdeen, Norwich, Teesside, Newcastle, Southampton, Leeds, Cardiff and Paris.
Christine Ourmieres-Widener, Flybe CEO said "This alliance with Eastern Airways is an excellent opportunity to strengthen the Flybe network. We already operate flights at a number of common airports and this will enable passengers to connect to a greater number of destinations, across the UK and into Europe, all booked through Flybe.com. Eastern will operate routes from Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Manchester to offer an enhanced service to passengers based in Scotland and travelling to Scotland. Combined with our flights to Heathrow from Edinburgh and Aberdeen, this demonstrates our strong commitment to serving Scotland.
Richard Lake, Chief Executive of Eastern Airways, said: "This alliance will benefit both airlines as not only does it strengthen Flybe's network, but broadens our distribution and enhances connection opportunities for our customers through its global airline association. We have specialised in fixed-wing flying in the oil and gas market for many years and our expertise will provide a greater opportunity to further develop offshore connectivity to Flybe's network."
Notes to editor:
Flybe announced on 21 November 2016 that the franchise agreement with Loganair to fly under the Flybe brand would be discontinued from the end of August 2017. Eastern Airways will operate some of these routes, namely Aberdeen-Sumburgh, Glasgow-Sumburgh, Edinburgh-Sumburgh, Glasgow-Manchester, Aberdeen-Kirkwall, and Glasgow-Stornoway under the Flybe franchise agreement from 1 September 2017.
In addition to the above routes, the Eastern scheduled network to be available to book on Flybe.com from 1st of September will include routes between Aberdeen, Norwich, Teesside, Newcastle, Southampton, Leeds, Cardiff and Paris
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So what routes will Loganair continue to operate from MAN? I note Inverness is not mentioned in that press release ot are flybe doing that service with their own a/c?
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I do give MAN credit, however, in its ability in recent years to attract new business, and given the growth of the city's economy I would say that eventually MAN would become a key business destination - just not yet.
Currently AA have 31 B763s, 20 B788s and 7 B789s (with 15 on order). 7 B763s will be retired this year, and a further 7 will be retired next year. The 17 remaining aircraft are being refitted with wifi and will remain in operation for the foreseeable future.
In total, AA have 15 B789s and 22 A359s on order, however the A359s won't be delivered until 2020. That means there will be 14 B763s leaving the fleet and 15 B789s joining the fleet over the next two years.
The new B789s on order will be used on the more successful B788 routes, leaving the B788s free to operate routes operated by the B763 - makes more economic sense than going straight from a B763 to B789.
Even when compared to a retrofitted B763, the B788 is a more comfortable aircraft. Therefore it makes a lot more sense for the B788 to initially replace the B763 on some of its longer routes such as DFW-MXP, which is over 5,300 miles, or on their flagship routes that connect to important hubs, e.g. ORD-LHR, where frequency and a high quality cabin is as important as capacity.
Ultimately, the remaining B763s will be used on the shorter and less lucrative routes until they are phased out post 2020. It is worth noting that AA haven't yet ordered any replacement aircraft for the remaining 17 B763s, so it could be well into the next decade before they are retired for good.
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The mentality of "wasting" a B787 on ORD-MAN is surely countered by Norwegian buying a fleet of new B787s and flying them on LGW-JFK. The BA B744 fleet is capable of being used on LHR-SIN but nowadays flies LHR-JFK, capability may remain but the mission changes with the requirements of the market.
Now MAN-ORD demands modern hard product, punctuality and daily service, something the B757/B763 combo now struggles on.
The US legacy presence is taking a hammering at MAN, Delta gone after three decades (albeit with VS stepping in), AA using fag end equipment on 2/3 of their offering and UA down to a single daily B757.
I suspect Thomas Cook really stepping up has stripped a lot of the connecting traffic the network carriers depended on, Norwegian if they decide to mirror LGW ops at MAN might kill a few routes off.
Manchester is a huge business destination, it baffles me why we need to keep making that point, it just gets outshone by the insanity of Mos Eisley...er London.
Now MAN-ORD demands modern hard product, punctuality and daily service, something the B757/B763 combo now struggles on.
The US legacy presence is taking a hammering at MAN, Delta gone after three decades (albeit with VS stepping in), AA using fag end equipment on 2/3 of their offering and UA down to a single daily B757.
I suspect Thomas Cook really stepping up has stripped a lot of the connecting traffic the network carriers depended on, Norwegian if they decide to mirror LGW ops at MAN might kill a few routes off.
Manchester is a huge business destination, it baffles me why we need to keep making that point, it just gets outshone by the insanity of Mos Eisley...er London.
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The significance of MAN as a business destination is that it is not just the city of Manchester. It squarely serves the cities of Leeds, Liverpool, Sheffield and has decent market share in cities like Newcastle, Birmingham, Stoke, and the three East Midlands cities.
These are Some of the largest cities in Europe - but individually they are so much smaller than London they can get lost.
The eastbound carriers should present the model of how to make AA, UA & DL (now essentially VS) a success. I don't see this happening and I see TCX continue to eat their lunch at MAN, with VS and possibly BA entering the mix as and when to keep Norwegian at bay.
These are Some of the largest cities in Europe - but individually they are so much smaller than London they can get lost.
The eastbound carriers should present the model of how to make AA, UA & DL (now essentially VS) a success. I don't see this happening and I see TCX continue to eat their lunch at MAN, with VS and possibly BA entering the mix as and when to keep Norwegian at bay.
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You're forgetting that the likes of LHR, CDG etc are key routes where ultimately frequency is as important as capacity for AA. Operating four daily ORD-LHR is more beneficial for AA than operating just two B77W flights as it allows people greater choice in connections.
No, MAN is not a key destination. Key European cities would be the likes of DUB, LHR, CDG, MAD, FCO, ZRH, MXP, FRA, AMS, BRU - business cities that are essential for a global network.
You are also aware that in your 'key cities' speech, Manchester is classed as a Beta global city, putting it on par with the likes of Rio de Janerio, Geneva, Vancouver, Brisbane and more, and above the likes of Denver, Jeddah, San Jose and more. The only ranks above are Beta+ Which contains mostly capitals or huge economic areas such as Dusseldorf, and then alpha which are capital cities mostly. So, it's obviously a pretty key city considering it's a regional city.
*I am aware the route has gone seasonal but by continuous I mean it hasn't had a 'cut' of more than one season.
I do give MAN credit, however, in its ability in recent years to attract new business, and given the growth of the city's economy I would say that eventually MAN would become a key business destination - just not yet.
Even when compared to a retrofitted B763, the B788 is a more comfortable aircraft. Therefore it makes a lot more sense for the B788 to initially replace the B763 on some of its longer routes such as DFW-MXP, which is over 5,300 miles, or on their flagship routes that connect to important hubs, e.g. ORD-LHR, where frequency and a high quality cabin is as important as capacity.
Why should pax pay over the odds for a flight that has no AVOD, poor OTP for the same price of the LHR flight which runs on a nice shiney B788 roughly on time? This is why the likes of Virgin and Thomas cook are running rings around American. Better on board product, better OTP and for a fraction of the price. ,any be AA should put up more of a fight instead of sending in their sheds and wondering where all their pax are going. It's not exactly rocket science.
