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Quote from Bagso: "To be fair Shed, Heathrow is actually a not for profit organisation !
.... in 2013, which I think was year that was referenced. it surprisingly paid not a jot to the exchequer, see below !"
Bagso. I'm sure your figures for Heathrow are correct but have you checked the equivalent figures for MAG? In the last financial year MAG paid negative tax, ie had a tax credit equivalent to 41% of profits. In the previous year MAG's effective tax rate was only 1%.
Low effective tax rates tend to be a feature of capital-intensive businesses, especially those (like HAH and MAG) that are saddled with a lot of tax-deductible debt. By all means criticise Heathrow for the indefensible cost of R3, but the reference to its tax rate has the ring of the pot calling the kettle black!
.... in 2013, which I think was year that was referenced. it surprisingly paid not a jot to the exchequer, see below !"
Bagso. I'm sure your figures for Heathrow are correct but have you checked the equivalent figures for MAG? In the last financial year MAG paid negative tax, ie had a tax credit equivalent to 41% of profits. In the previous year MAG's effective tax rate was only 1%.
Low effective tax rates tend to be a feature of capital-intensive businesses, especially those (like HAH and MAG) that are saddled with a lot of tax-deductible debt. By all means criticise Heathrow for the indefensible cost of R3, but the reference to its tax rate has the ring of the pot calling the kettle black!
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Basil
Could not agree more ! Thank you for providing the option to present some clarity !
It is Heathrow that is being held up as "UK Airport Flag Bearer of choice" and WILL apparently, create billions for the economy depending who you believe, and whether they are on Westerlies OR Easterlies, HAL £100Bn or Davies £210Bn !
(Note That Davies figure is DOUBLE that of the company who actually own LHR, how very , very odd)
Therefore a token contribution would be nice ?
... Manchester does not exist in the national media (New PR Agency anybody?), and is well under the radar, but given the billions pouring into the South East , well touche, at least in terms of Corporation Tax its the one AND only area where we are at least on an even keel !
I do concede Ms Hodge was very annoyed, but as you say Basil she should be equally irritated by MAN as well !
But Manchester, is clearly an irrelevance, which in many respects is EVEN more annoying, we pay no tax and blow me,
EVEN THAT is ignored !
Meanwhile maybe the answer to the LHR conundrum comes from The Spectator ?
"Cynics say Davies was picked because he could be relied upon to deliver the Heathrow answer that Whitehall and big business want, while giving previously opposed politicians an excuse for a U-turn."
hmmmmm, the mist clears, I wondered why Manchester was blatantly invisible in his deliberations !
ssssh don't mention where that £210Bn figure comes from , maybe nobody will notice !
Airports are doomed to be horrible ? especially as we?ll never expand Heathrow » The Spectator
A MAJOR nod to regionals here ?
I doubt it !
Could not agree more ! Thank you for providing the option to present some clarity !
It is Heathrow that is being held up as "UK Airport Flag Bearer of choice" and WILL apparently, create billions for the economy depending who you believe, and whether they are on Westerlies OR Easterlies, HAL £100Bn or Davies £210Bn !
(Note That Davies figure is DOUBLE that of the company who actually own LHR, how very , very odd)
Therefore a token contribution would be nice ?
... Manchester does not exist in the national media (New PR Agency anybody?), and is well under the radar, but given the billions pouring into the South East , well touche, at least in terms of Corporation Tax its the one AND only area where we are at least on an even keel !
I do concede Ms Hodge was very annoyed, but as you say Basil she should be equally irritated by MAN as well !
But Manchester, is clearly an irrelevance, which in many respects is EVEN more annoying, we pay no tax and blow me,
EVEN THAT is ignored !
Meanwhile maybe the answer to the LHR conundrum comes from The Spectator ?
"Cynics say Davies was picked because he could be relied upon to deliver the Heathrow answer that Whitehall and big business want, while giving previously opposed politicians an excuse for a U-turn."
hmmmmm, the mist clears, I wondered why Manchester was blatantly invisible in his deliberations !
ssssh don't mention where that £210Bn figure comes from , maybe nobody will notice !
Airports are doomed to be horrible ? especially as we?ll never expand Heathrow » The Spectator
A MAJOR nod to regionals here ?
I doubt it !
Last edited by Bagso; 6th Apr 2015 at 21:36.
^^^
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Oh dear, here come the the let's not have a grown up, informed discussion/debate brigade again. They, of course have been given good advice and fail to see the mods obviously realise there is a deal of interest in the debate and that those taking part have asked for their posts to be moved to a specific "effects of the HAL proposal on MAN and other regional airports" or similar thread.
Perhaps it is therefore time for a "I only have a one line attention span" thread for Manchester for those who not only cannot do with the debate but also can't understand the advice they have been given over the last few days. I just wonder how they are coping with the election campaign and if their votes will be based on one liners in our wonderfully erudite and intelligent tabloid press.
Perhaps it is therefore time for a "I only have a one line attention span" thread for Manchester for those who not only cannot do with the debate but also can't understand the advice they have been given over the last few days. I just wonder how they are coping with the election campaign and if their votes will be based on one liners in our wonderfully erudite and intelligent tabloid press.
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Bagso + philbky
"Oh dear, here come the the let's not have a grown up, informed discussion/debate brigade again."
With Bagso you get one line which is of interest. In this case the Spectator link.
If you believe you can have a grown up discussion on the rest, then well done. Maybe you can give us more of your resume and tell us more about the worse airports you have been to, then we can all say that MAN is not so bad. Me I want to see the old place be the best again.
Now the Spectator report has some interesting points in the first two paragraphs. That is more of a grown up debate.
With Bagso you get one line which is of interest. In this case the Spectator link.
If you believe you can have a grown up discussion on the rest, then well done. Maybe you can give us more of your resume and tell us more about the worse airports you have been to, then we can all say that MAN is not so bad. Me I want to see the old place be the best again.
Now the Spectator report has some interesting points in the first two paragraphs. That is more of a grown up debate.
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BDLBOS if you want to see the old place be the best again, then try to understand just how the HAL proposals will go a long way to ensuring it isn't. Have an opinion on the matter and state it. Otherwise, resume your lurking (26 posts in nine years says it all) and take the advice about ignoring posts you don't want to read and leave the debate to those who really care and are capable of conducting it.
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Brilliant, gazza007, some common sense at last.
, top comments too!!Can we create a new MAN thread that focusses on MAN, perhaps one that does not allow this continuous this MAN vs LHR spat. SE is a region & NW is a region with their own identities. We are not a UK and never really have been but as a whole we are becoming more regionalised & devolved than ever before. MAN has always been a great airport and routes will come and go but it is certainly heading in the right direction. The infrastructure is coming together nicely; Trams & rail improvements, Ordsall Chord etc, A555, A556, M60 as managed motorway even the M60 at Bredbury to A6 is being muted again. 2 Runways, 24 hour ops, potential for further terminal expansion, Airport City to name a few.
ps I forgot G-BOAC
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This is not a spat it is a debate about the latest moves in a situation that has been ongoing since the end of WW2. It is about the relationship between London's airports and those in the regions. Manchester is the focus because for seventy years it has done more to highlight the inequalities and has more to lose than any other.
This may not be a truly United Kingdom and it certainly isn't when it comes down to investment in major projects, in the way governments of all complexions have put their weight and often funds behind projects and in the promotion of inward tourism.
In terms of aviation policy, the UK has always been focussed on London. There is the argument that this is a small country with the need for just one gateway.
If this was Ireland, with the major concentration of population and business around the capital, that argument would stand up. In the UK it doesn't. There are distinct large population and business clusters each with its own claim to a need for a range of direct services.
Check the population statistics and the number of businesses for a seventy mile radius of LHR and MAN and then explain why Heathrow should continue to have such a heavily weighted bias in its favour to the detriment of everywhere else.
As the gateway airport to the capital it must have whatever service it can support but that should not be to the detriment of the regions which have their own needs.
This may not be a truly United Kingdom and it certainly isn't when it comes down to investment in major projects, in the way governments of all complexions have put their weight and often funds behind projects and in the promotion of inward tourism.
In terms of aviation policy, the UK has always been focussed on London. There is the argument that this is a small country with the need for just one gateway.
If this was Ireland, with the major concentration of population and business around the capital, that argument would stand up. In the UK it doesn't. There are distinct large population and business clusters each with its own claim to a need for a range of direct services.
Check the population statistics and the number of businesses for a seventy mile radius of LHR and MAN and then explain why Heathrow should continue to have such a heavily weighted bias in its favour to the detriment of everywhere else.
As the gateway airport to the capital it must have whatever service it can support but that should not be to the detriment of the regions which have their own needs.
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Well it doesn't sound like a debate sometimes more like football rivalry.
I agree its all about economics the area creates a lot of wealth which is distributed outwards but lets get out of this London & other regions.
London is a region too.The SE is full up; there is a lack of housing, people genuinely struggle, businesses as a whole seriously need to think about relocating to the rest of UK but the powers that be will expand LHR further, its where they want to be despite the long arrival stacks and long departure taxying. We do OK in this part of the world but we have our own agenda, good luck to LHR & all airports wherever they are but my focus is MAN.
I agree its all about economics the area creates a lot of wealth which is distributed outwards but lets get out of this London & other regions.
London is a region too.The SE is full up; there is a lack of housing, people genuinely struggle, businesses as a whole seriously need to think about relocating to the rest of UK but the powers that be will expand LHR further, its where they want to be despite the long arrival stacks and long departure taxying. We do OK in this part of the world but we have our own agenda, good luck to LHR & all airports wherever they are but my focus is MAN.
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philbky
"BDLBOS if you want to see the old place be the best again, then try to understand just how the HAL proposals will go a long way to ensuring it isn't. Have an opinion on the matter and state it. Otherwise, resume your lurking (26 posts in nine years says it all) and take the advice about ignoring posts you don't want to read and leave the debate to those who really care and are capable of conducting it."
Brilliant reply, congrats. I will bow to your superior knowledge. Just a quick question, will I be OK flying into MAN in May and July, or will R3 been approved by then and all the airlines stopping service at MAN.
MAN is in control of its own destiny, always has and always will.
By the way, this is my 48th post, when do I stop being a lurker?
Brilliant reply, congrats. I will bow to your superior knowledge. Just a quick question, will I be OK flying into MAN in May and July, or will R3 been approved by then and all the airlines stopping service at MAN.
MAN is in control of its own destiny, always has and always will.
By the way, this is my 48th post, when do I stop being a lurker?
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Gazza007, if your focus is MAN you are missing the crucial point. The UK establishment, civil service and a few hundred years of history are all London focussed. Geographically the Home Counties are just another region but in the mind set of those that run the country they are thefocus point of the country and will always come first,the rest of the country has to fight for what is left.
BDLBOS, your reply speaks volumes I refer the readership to your rather silly second paragraph and the third which is in total denial of the historical fact.
Try reading the history of the route applications between 1945 and 1992 backed by the airportbut fought by and successfull defeated by BEA, BOAC and BA. Read how successful routes by SABENA and Aer Lingus, were stopped by the UK government at the behest of the state airlines.
In control of its own destiny? If you are going to make a point, base it on fact, not fantasy.
BDLBOS, your reply speaks volumes I refer the readership to your rather silly second paragraph and the third which is in total denial of the historical fact.
Try reading the history of the route applications between 1945 and 1992 backed by the airportbut fought by and successfull defeated by BEA, BOAC and BA. Read how successful routes by SABENA and Aer Lingus, were stopped by the UK government at the behest of the state airlines.
In control of its own destiny? If you are going to make a point, base it on fact, not fantasy.
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BDLBOS, your reply speaks volumes I refer the readership to your rather silly second paragraph and the third which is in total denial of the historical fact.
Try reading the history of the route applications between 1945 and 1992 backed by the airportbut fought by and successfull defeated by BEA, BOAC and BA. Read how successful routes by SABENA and Aer Lingus, were stopped by the UK government at the behest of the state airlines.
In control of its own destiny? If you are going to make a point, base it on fact, not fantasy.
I tend not to dwell on the past, tend to focus on going forward. MAN does not have the monopoly of being abused in the way you describe, globally lots of airports were. BEA/BOAC had a base at MAN for services to North America and Europe, so they used tools available to them to stop competition. Lots of things changed when MAN got a good Management team with balls and drove the Airports image and status forward. This has given it the foundation it has today. Now we have things like open sky agreements, code sharing and alliances.
Is that better for the readership? Now should I mention some bad airports I visited in the last two weeks, have some hum dingers.
I think it will be good when MAN announces something on the Terminals, linking them and easy transit would be good.
Try reading the history of the route applications between 1945 and 1992 backed by the airportbut fought by and successfull defeated by BEA, BOAC and BA. Read how successful routes by SABENA and Aer Lingus, were stopped by the UK government at the behest of the state airlines.
In control of its own destiny? If you are going to make a point, base it on fact, not fantasy.
I tend not to dwell on the past, tend to focus on going forward. MAN does not have the monopoly of being abused in the way you describe, globally lots of airports were. BEA/BOAC had a base at MAN for services to North America and Europe, so they used tools available to them to stop competition. Lots of things changed when MAN got a good Management team with balls and drove the Airports image and status forward. This has given it the foundation it has today. Now we have things like open sky agreements, code sharing and alliances.
Is that better for the readership? Now should I mention some bad airports I visited in the last two weeks, have some hum dingers.
I think it will be good when MAN announces something on the Terminals, linking them and easy transit would be good.
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Try reading the history of the route applications between 1945 and 1992 backed by the airport but fought by and successfull defeated by BEA, BOAC and BA. Read how successful routes by SABENA and Aer Lingus, were stopped by the UK government at the behest of the state airlines.
Aer Lingus, BA, Swiss, Lufthansa, KLM and Air France (OK not that last one) are having to survive in a less cushioned environment shall we say.
To the specific point, the SE is a victim of it's own success. So in my mind there is an opportunity to have a lot more MAN-long haul so that no one in their right mind would choose LHR over a local MAN option (cost permitting!)(. In order to do that, one has to make a commercial business case that will get the nod from an airline looking for a good ROI. Now United are not offering a strong MAN-LHR-US offering, nor are Delta, only BA/AA are strong. So to my mind, why have the non OneWorld US legacies not been giving MAN the offering it arguably deserves. Delta with a single B757? United still with the B757? Genuine question, what are their frequent fliers using instead of BA/AA? Are the Delta guys doing KLM over AMS to connect with the Delta hub? What are the United FFs doing?
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Skipness - Forgive me for appearing slightly cynical, but this is the third time in just afew days that you have effectively paraphrased your earlier question about MAN's Transatlantic schedules operated by the three major US carriers. I answered the two previous questions in some depth - see posts No.1512 and No.1552 on this thread. Not wishing to draw further accusations of being too repetitive, I refer you primarily to those answers.
However, I do re-emphasise the importance of accounting for Delta Airlines and Virgin Atlantic flights as comprising a single programme under a close partnership. It is disingenuous and misleading to imply that Delta's single daily B752 schedule operates in isolation from Virgin, and can therefore be deemed to be some damning verdict upon prior performance ex-MAN. With some posters, such a knowledge-gap could be put down to lack of awareness. But somehow I don't think that applies in your case. You are clearly very well-informed. Thus, a suspicious mind might suspect you of trying to create a negative narrative against MAN's long-haul credentials in pursuit of some wider underlying agenda? Your question reads as a dig disguised as faint praise.
American Airlines will operate three widebodies per day across the Atlantic from MAN this Summer. Could do better, but not terrible. United's two daily B752 operation could certainly benefit from an upgrade. But as we have mentioned, Thomas Cook is pitching in on JFK and MIA as well, so that will be a new conduit for some of the leisure demand. MAN has work to do in bulking up its transatlantic portfolio, and the challenges discussed in earlier answers must be addressed. But it is not quite the graveyard that some might envisage, and based upon the fares, Summer yields ex-MAN for those three carriers must be stellar.
Now, that's another question from Skipness answered. It is of course good form to reply to questions posed to you in return. Please refer to postings Nos. 1552 and 1564 for the specifics. I look forward to your considered response.
However, I do re-emphasise the importance of accounting for Delta Airlines and Virgin Atlantic flights as comprising a single programme under a close partnership. It is disingenuous and misleading to imply that Delta's single daily B752 schedule operates in isolation from Virgin, and can therefore be deemed to be some damning verdict upon prior performance ex-MAN. With some posters, such a knowledge-gap could be put down to lack of awareness. But somehow I don't think that applies in your case. You are clearly very well-informed. Thus, a suspicious mind might suspect you of trying to create a negative narrative against MAN's long-haul credentials in pursuit of some wider underlying agenda? Your question reads as a dig disguised as faint praise.
American Airlines will operate three widebodies per day across the Atlantic from MAN this Summer. Could do better, but not terrible. United's two daily B752 operation could certainly benefit from an upgrade. But as we have mentioned, Thomas Cook is pitching in on JFK and MIA as well, so that will be a new conduit for some of the leisure demand. MAN has work to do in bulking up its transatlantic portfolio, and the challenges discussed in earlier answers must be addressed. But it is not quite the graveyard that some might envisage, and based upon the fares, Summer yields ex-MAN for those three carriers must be stellar.
Now, that's another question from Skipness answered. It is of course good form to reply to questions posed to you in return. Please refer to postings Nos. 1552 and 1564 for the specifics. I look forward to your considered response.
Last edited by Shed-on-a-Pole; 7th Apr 2015 at 21:24.
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It's interesting looking at the summarised 2014 stats for MAN on Wikipedia.
Manchester Airport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
On here there has been some discussion about LHR losing out to DXB for long haul and how the number of flights to LHR is falling and yet we see a 10% increase to LHR in 2014 over 2013 with a much lower increase to DXB (wonder what the load factor is on EK mind).
Also of note is the 22% increase to DUB ranking it 3rd of all routes from MAN. How much of this is pax avoiding APD? I know people who have done it as I'm sure we all do. With APD being devolved, would we see these pax demanding more long haul direct from MAN if it was slashed?
Domestically there were also big increases from Exeter, Isle of Man and Southampton. Don't all of these connect onto EY and now CX long haul? How much feed is Flybe creating for these carriers? AUH is also up 22% interestingly to 12th most popular destination.
As we've now completed the first 1/4 of 2015, are we seeing a similar pattern to this I wonder and what effect has the value of the euro had on choice of destination?
On another forum, I've also seen discussion about the closure of Jet Parks 1 & 2 and the start of the big building works for Airport City (and the A6 - MAN relief road) but I know that these 'associated' things are not so popular on here.
Hopefully we can bring this thread back to a focus on MAN!
Manchester Airport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
On here there has been some discussion about LHR losing out to DXB for long haul and how the number of flights to LHR is falling and yet we see a 10% increase to LHR in 2014 over 2013 with a much lower increase to DXB (wonder what the load factor is on EK mind).
Also of note is the 22% increase to DUB ranking it 3rd of all routes from MAN. How much of this is pax avoiding APD? I know people who have done it as I'm sure we all do. With APD being devolved, would we see these pax demanding more long haul direct from MAN if it was slashed?
Domestically there were also big increases from Exeter, Isle of Man and Southampton. Don't all of these connect onto EY and now CX long haul? How much feed is Flybe creating for these carriers? AUH is also up 22% interestingly to 12th most popular destination.
As we've now completed the first 1/4 of 2015, are we seeing a similar pattern to this I wonder and what effect has the value of the euro had on choice of destination?
On another forum, I've also seen discussion about the closure of Jet Parks 1 & 2 and the start of the big building works for Airport City (and the A6 - MAN relief road) but I know that these 'associated' things are not so popular on here.
Hopefully we can bring this thread back to a focus on MAN!
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transit pax totals can be found in the CAA U.K.airport statistics download.
JAN15 was a figure of 5280 which compared to the total pax for the month of over 1.3M is very negligible .
Having said that I tend to wonder how accurate these figures are as heathrow has a figure just 1768!
JAN15 was a figure of 5280 which compared to the total pax for the month of over 1.3M is very negligible .
Having said that I tend to wonder how accurate these figures are as heathrow has a figure just 1768!