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Hoping Charlie Cornish has something 'substantial' to support his "Developing Manchester as an international hub" piece.......
Manchester Business Conference | News
Manchester Business Conference | News
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Perhaps someone should tweet Osborne and ask him what's happened to the new service he promised Manchester! (I was about to suggest they could also ask which of his other tweets were also hot air, but that's more a Jet Blast comment!).
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China flights
Although genuinely not seeking to denigrate BHX's coup in the race for a permanent scheduled link to mainland China, surely the fact that last year's BHX-China and this year's are operated by different carriers highlights what this is - a charter operation?
Prestigious though they obviously are, if these flights were in any way a trial series in advance of a possible full scheduled operation, and if this year's extended run is due to last year's success, sure we'd be seeing CZ again? The switch to HU indicates this is a block booking on the cheapest available charter operator, rather than a teaser for a more permanent connection.
Prestigious though they obviously are, if these flights were in any way a trial series in advance of a possible full scheduled operation, and if this year's extended run is due to last year's success, sure we'd be seeing CZ again? The switch to HU indicates this is a block booking on the cheapest available charter operator, rather than a teaser for a more permanent connection.
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110 Cornets
Well said - I was about to post something very similar.
People need to put this into perspective:
1. There is a world of difference between 17 flights a year full of tourists and 4 flights a week in a mixed mode.
2. This is not 'Hainan' per se, it's a tour operator that has chartered the cheapest available airline, the same as last year. In fact if your BHX glass is half empty you could say China Southern dipped their toes in the water last year and aren't coming back. The thing is, that's nonsense as they were no more doing that than Hainan are doing this year.
3. Don't Austrian Airlines fly to both BHX and MAN on ski charters (to ski type places) - that's no more likely to be a toe in the water for scheduled flights as Hainan. The two things are entirely separate.
EDIT: Going way back in time didn't PanAm fly regular charters (for tour operators) for years into MAN? They never operated scheduled services.
Well said - I was about to post something very similar.
People need to put this into perspective:
1. There is a world of difference between 17 flights a year full of tourists and 4 flights a week in a mixed mode.
2. This is not 'Hainan' per se, it's a tour operator that has chartered the cheapest available airline, the same as last year. In fact if your BHX glass is half empty you could say China Southern dipped their toes in the water last year and aren't coming back. The thing is, that's nonsense as they were no more doing that than Hainan are doing this year.
3. Don't Austrian Airlines fly to both BHX and MAN on ski charters (to ski type places) - that's no more likely to be a toe in the water for scheduled flights as Hainan. The two things are entirely separate.
EDIT: Going way back in time didn't PanAm fly regular charters (for tour operators) for years into MAN? They never operated scheduled services.
1. There is a world of difference between 17 flights a year full of tourists and 4 flights a week in a mixed mode.
2. This is not 'Hainan' per se, it's a tour operator that has chartered the cheapest available airline, the same as last year. In fact if your BHX glass is half empty you could say China Southern dipped their toes in the water last year and aren't coming back. The thing is, that's nonsense as they were no more doing that than Hainan are doing this year.
3. Don't Austrian Airlines fly to both BHX and MAN on ski charters (to ski type places) - that's no more likely to be a toe in the water for scheduled flights as Hainan. The two things are entirely separate.
2. This is not 'Hainan' per se, it's a tour operator that has chartered the cheapest available airline, the same as last year. In fact if your BHX glass is half empty you could say China Southern dipped their toes in the water last year and aren't coming back. The thing is, that's nonsense as they were no more doing that than Hainan are doing this year.
3. Don't Austrian Airlines fly to both BHX and MAN on ski charters (to ski type places) - that's no more likely to be a toe in the water for scheduled flights as Hainan. The two things are entirely separate.
It is undeniable that something has gone amiss with the Hainan MAN service, otherwise it would be up and running this summer. Perhaps they have done their sums and decided that the demand for 4 x weekly schedules just isn't there yet - in terms of potential yield - to any UK airport outside London and they are reviewing their strategy? Perhaps the figures show that it's a close run thing in terms of demand, between MAN and BHX, for the profitable front end business, or for cargo?
Time alone will tell, but one thing that Manchester, and it's proponents, need to realise is that the airport doesn't have a God given right to every new long haul route to England, outside of London.
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work that will have been put in by BHX marketing, the tourist boards and the UK trade department will potentially give BHX a head start in the race for direct China connections from outside London
Time alone will tell, but one thing that Manchester, and it's proponents, need to realise is that the airport doesn't have a God given right to every new long haul route to England, outside of London.
Bit harsh? When there are announcements from the UK chancellor, various news sources and Hainan themselves that MAN will start, do we not have a right to wonder why the services have not started? Its not about a 'God given right', its about an airline stating intent to start flights and even appearing in GDS, slots, cargo etc, then, suddenly going flat.
Not so much of a headstart when MAN already has a scheduled link to China.
But credit where credit is due MAN is served direct from HKG by CX.
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Different kettle of fish maybe, but, its China all the same. The clue is in its title, 'Special administrative region of China'
And lets face it, if things keep going the way they are, it probably won't be too long until HK is absorbed into China fully anyway.
And lets face it, if things keep going the way they are, it probably won't be too long until HK is absorbed into China fully anyway.
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Can I remind LAX-LHR that Mr Al Baker himself said that BHX would be getting his airline soon,but 2 years on we are still waiting.
As far as longer term scheduled flights are concerned we must all wait and see what happens.I believe there is enough demand from both business and tourism for both BHX and MAN to have regular flights.
As said before MAN does not have sole rights to any routes or services from anywhere in the world.Airlines will go to where they believe they will get the best returns from.If that happens to be BHX then why can't you congratulate BHX and move on.
I seem to remember someone saying MAN should get AI from BHX.It seems to me a certain amount of jealousy is surfacing here.
I just don't know why seeing as no one from the BHX thread has ever suggested trying to get airlines from MAN to BHX,and let's be honest there are far more to chose from.
As far as longer term scheduled flights are concerned we must all wait and see what happens.I believe there is enough demand from both business and tourism for both BHX and MAN to have regular flights.
As said before MAN does not have sole rights to any routes or services from anywhere in the world.Airlines will go to where they believe they will get the best returns from.If that happens to be BHX then why can't you congratulate BHX and move on.
I seem to remember someone saying MAN should get AI from BHX.It seems to me a certain amount of jealousy is surfacing here.
I just don't know why seeing as no one from the BHX thread has ever suggested trying to get airlines from MAN to BHX,and let's be honest there are far more to chose from.
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OK LAX answer this one, if you consider MAN had already "won the race" with Cathay why did you feel the need to go onto the BHX boards and gleefully announce MAN had won the race when Hainan "confirmed" flights to Beijing when Cathay was already in the bag? Make your mind up :-)
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bhx_bod,
You seem to be having a completely different debate to what is actually taking place.
Where has anyone said BHX should not be getting these flights?
Where has anyone said MAN has the God given right to these flights?
All that has been said, is that in September, George Osbourne announced Hainan would be serving MAN.
Hainan themselves said on Sept 4th, MAN would be their next Euro point.
Various articles since then have stated that MAN is part of their 2015 new routes plan.
Also, MAN appeared in GDS, had cargo bookings and had slots cleared.
Are the BHX lot saying we have no right to question where this airline has gone, especially since BHX flights have been catapulted in, charters or not?
I will say again, this is nothing to do with 'MAN has the God given right for flights', its about wondering what has happened to as good as announced flights that still are not bookable.
You seem to be having a completely different debate to what is actually taking place.
Where has anyone said BHX should not be getting these flights?
Where has anyone said MAN has the God given right to these flights?
All that has been said, is that in September, George Osbourne announced Hainan would be serving MAN.
Hainan themselves said on Sept 4th, MAN would be their next Euro point.
Various articles since then have stated that MAN is part of their 2015 new routes plan.
Also, MAN appeared in GDS, had cargo bookings and had slots cleared.
Are the BHX lot saying we have no right to question where this airline has gone, especially since BHX flights have been catapulted in, charters or not?
I will say again, this is nothing to do with 'MAN has the God given right for flights', its about wondering what has happened to as good as announced flights that still are not bookable.
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God/airline route planning
Trying to steer away from emotion, and towards statistics, I see on one of the route prospecting sites that MAN had 56,000 indirect passengers to Beijing in 2011, and 36,000 leakage to London.
Anyone have equivalent figures for BHX?
My company sells flights from Asia/Pacific, Europe and North America to points worldwide and MAN is usually top 5 as a European destination, BHX is towards the bottom of the top 20/25. Overall demand is far greater to Manchester.
Of course the far broader range of carriers into MAN could favour BHX, as could any airport incentives on offer if BHX were to be more keen than MAN, but on a purely economic basis I'd be keen to see the BHX demand to compare with Manchester's....anyone?
Anyone have equivalent figures for BHX?
My company sells flights from Asia/Pacific, Europe and North America to points worldwide and MAN is usually top 5 as a European destination, BHX is towards the bottom of the top 20/25. Overall demand is far greater to Manchester.
Of course the far broader range of carriers into MAN could favour BHX, as could any airport incentives on offer if BHX were to be more keen than MAN, but on a purely economic basis I'd be keen to see the BHX demand to compare with Manchester's....anyone?
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I think this has been mentioned, but Hainan BHX are charter flights only.
The contract just happens to been won by Hainan, presumably on price, which could be just pure co-incidence. It could have been any airline flying it really, just as it was another airline last year.
I'll panic a hell of a lot more IF this season of charters turned to schedule.
The contract just happens to been won by Hainan, presumably on price, which could be just pure co-incidence. It could have been any airline flying it really, just as it was another airline last year.
I'll panic a hell of a lot more IF this season of charters turned to schedule.
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Now for something Completely Different!
"Where has all the cargo gone, - long time passing" Enough of Peter, Paul and Mary (who, I hear you yung uns saying?)
However the question remains where has it all gone? OK some of it is being catered for in more available cargo space on some of the new services, i.e. Cathay B777's, Etihad B777's etc but that's not didly squat compared to where we were some 6-8 years ago.
China Cargo
Jett 8 Cargo
Malaysian Cargo
Cathay Pacific Cargo
Dragon Air Cargo
China Airlines Cargo
Great Wall Cargo
Cargolux
Occaisional
MNG Cargo
Atlas Air Cargo
Kalitta Cargo
etc etc
Yes, there has been a world economic meltdown, but GB Ltd is supposedly way ahead in the recovery stakes, and it shows in Stansted and EMA movements.
Let me see. Conspiracy theory.
I see lots of Ad-hoc Cargo flights using East Midlands, AN-12 one offs, Cargolux, Atlas Air (ok some are F.1 related ), good old Saudi C-130's, AN-124's etc etc along with their consolidator ops of UPS and DHL
I see down at Stansted, Cargolux, Qatar cargo, Silkway cargo, who have all started fairly recently and a large Fed Ex & UPS operation.
Who owns these two outstations ?
I would have a bet that Manchester actively dis-courages freight in favour of forwarders trucking it to EMA and Stansted. Notice how Emirates has been rumoured to be starting a freight only service. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if it doesn't happen here but does at EMA!
It appears that our freight stands are required for just parking aircraft and remote ops., because others are taken up with CARS !! (My real pet HATE!!)
I do hope that MA Plc really make me eat my own words and get some of the cargo back through here, but I'm afraid that I see myself on a starvation diet for a long long time.
However the question remains where has it all gone? OK some of it is being catered for in more available cargo space on some of the new services, i.e. Cathay B777's, Etihad B777's etc but that's not didly squat compared to where we were some 6-8 years ago.
China Cargo
Jett 8 Cargo
Malaysian Cargo
Cathay Pacific Cargo
Dragon Air Cargo
China Airlines Cargo
Great Wall Cargo
Cargolux
Occaisional
MNG Cargo
Atlas Air Cargo
Kalitta Cargo
etc etc
Yes, there has been a world economic meltdown, but GB Ltd is supposedly way ahead in the recovery stakes, and it shows in Stansted and EMA movements.
Let me see. Conspiracy theory.
I see lots of Ad-hoc Cargo flights using East Midlands, AN-12 one offs, Cargolux, Atlas Air (ok some are F.1 related ), good old Saudi C-130's, AN-124's etc etc along with their consolidator ops of UPS and DHL
I see down at Stansted, Cargolux, Qatar cargo, Silkway cargo, who have all started fairly recently and a large Fed Ex & UPS operation.
Who owns these two outstations ?
I would have a bet that Manchester actively dis-courages freight in favour of forwarders trucking it to EMA and Stansted. Notice how Emirates has been rumoured to be starting a freight only service. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if it doesn't happen here but does at EMA!
It appears that our freight stands are required for just parking aircraft and remote ops., because others are taken up with CARS !! (My real pet HATE!!)
I do hope that MA Plc really make me eat my own words and get some of the cargo back through here, but I'm afraid that I see myself on a starvation diet for a long long time.
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Plane spotters point of view that me thinks re cargo.
MAG won't care which of it's airports get's cargo flights, as long as one of them does...its all in the same pot as far as they are concerned IMO.
You could well be quite right, MAN is at stretching point, to MAG it may then make perfect sense sending Cargo to elsewhere in its empire.
MAG won't care which of it's airports get's cargo flights, as long as one of them does...its all in the same pot as far as they are concerned IMO.
You could well be quite right, MAN is at stretching point, to MAG it may then make perfect sense sending Cargo to elsewhere in its empire.
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Where has all the cargo gone ..... easy answer in the vast majority it has gone on to container ships.
You are correct the economic downturn did affect cargo overall and what happened is exporters and importers realised had much more cost effective it is to ship by sea than air, so they increased their lead times to allow for movement by sea.
The economy has improved but many shippers that I deal with have now realised that they are saving a lot of money by using containers rather than flying their freight so continue to try and plan so they can ship that way.
I am not denying your assertion that certain airports, EMA being a prime example do concentrate more on freight and that works for them. You also have to remember that for the integrators such as DHL, UPS et al EMA is well positioned centrally with a direct link to the motorway network.
You are correct the economic downturn did affect cargo overall and what happened is exporters and importers realised had much more cost effective it is to ship by sea than air, so they increased their lead times to allow for movement by sea.
The economy has improved but many shippers that I deal with have now realised that they are saving a lot of money by using containers rather than flying their freight so continue to try and plan so they can ship that way.
I am not denying your assertion that certain airports, EMA being a prime example do concentrate more on freight and that works for them. You also have to remember that for the integrators such as DHL, UPS et al EMA is well positioned centrally with a direct link to the motorway network.
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I would have a bet that Manchester actively dis-courages freight in favour of forwarders trucking it to EMA and Stansted. Notice how Emirates has been rumoured to be starting a freight only service. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if it doesn't happen here but does at EMA!
It appears that our freight stands are required for just parking aircraft and remote ops., because others are taken up with CARS !! (My real pet HATE!!)
It appears that our freight stands are required for just parking aircraft and remote ops., because others are taken up with CARS !! (My real pet HATE!!)
And weren't we supposed to be getting a DHL flight and possibly more Fed-ex?
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When there are announcements from the UK chancellor, various news sources and Hainan themselves that MAN will start, do we not have a right to wonder why the services have not started?
If, as suggested, the start up has simply been deferred until winter, the confidence level for those of us who are simply enthusiasts of it actually happening I suspect might be lower than it was originally, when it was based on all those announcements and comments LAX referred to.
It might also be interesting to know whether MAN and the various tourist and marketing organisations made a similar push for charters to MAN in the past, or whether it wasn't considered necessary because of the expectation of a scheduled service starting. I imagine doing business in China must require different diplomatic skills and protocol compared to most of Europe and the USA for example.
Anyway, credit to Birmingham and the agencies involved in securing a significant increase in the charter program for this summer. I would be surprised if both MAN & BHX could support scheduled flights to mainland China in the immediate future so understandably, given the competitive nature of the two airports in certain respects, I'm hoping MAN will still get them first.
Meanwhile, fingers crossed that the CX figures hold up and we see an increase to daily flights before too long.
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LAX-LHR you need to read up on the terms of the agreement between Britain and China regarding the transfer of power.
Hong Kong will remain a Special Administrative Region until July 1 2047. Whilst there are doubtless flaws in the agreement and many in HK wish for greater democracy, the system is working and it is in China's interest to maintain the current system. Things can change but there are no signs that the current Chinese leadership wishes to change the agreement.
Hong Kong will remain a Special Administrative Region until July 1 2047. Whilst there are doubtless flaws in the agreement and many in HK wish for greater democracy, the system is working and it is in China's interest to maintain the current system. Things can change but there are no signs that the current Chinese leadership wishes to change the agreement.