MANCHESTER 1

[eggc]

Think you could be quite surprised on timescale AndyH52.

The idea and the process is not just starting...it started a good while ago with agreements / plans, in principle, already there. It is not something that is at day 1 and only just being discussed for the first time.

MAN will / has modeled it's terminal redevelopment with this potential facility in mind, but it could also adapt the current terminal set-up fairly quickly in the meantime.

Exciting times at Ringway

[LAX_LHR]

LAX, please stop misrepresenting what is actually in the press release.

Im not?!

MAN is indeed one of 10 airports that the U.S. Is looking to take forward negotiations with and whose Governments could be seen as amenable to the idea of pre-clearance,

You say Im mis-interpriting the news, yet, basically say the same as me? The above is just a different wording to what I wrote?!

however it is not a given that the airports listed are the 'next 10'

Would you not say that as around 25 airports applied, these 10 were selected, does constitute as very likely to be the next 10? Or, are you just being pedantic?

[Bagso]

Well Suzeman i bow to your knowledge of the subject, clearly i have missed something as i have not seen one single reference to this until now.

Whilst I fully appreciate they not going to email us the minutes of every meeting i would have thought it would at least have been mentioned in the same way that other "salient messages" are released to press home a point or lobby for indirect support as clearly MAN would benefit from such an arrangement "at the point negotiations opened".

Whilst it is clearly only a small part of a negotiation ...... lobbying a government dept to show your interest via subtle comment in the media is usually a part of that process.

If MAN has indeed acted with the guile you describe and negotiations have been going on for many years that is indeed splendid. I still cannot help thinking more calls have been made recently given the EI scenario.

It still seems odd that this subject has never been raised at a single Transport Select Committee meeting in a forum where legislation can be influenced by MPs AT the appropriate time.

Maybe MAN assumed it was the wrong forum or is any agreement outside Parliament. MPs do get very animated re sovereign issues do they not

Are MPs involved in the process at any point ?

[Fairdealfrank]

Opportunity to get one over on LHR, they'd need to re-design much of LHR to give sterile areas across T5/4/3/2 or allow one group to have a competitive advantage. MAN would need to do this properly though, no silly cheapo half measures.

Would be very difficult at Heathrow if all carriers wanted to use the facilities, think Ringway could be way ahead on this one.

pre Clearance


If you read the DHS press release it is clear that negotiations with national governments are still to take place. This will not be a quick process...the UK government doesn't like non-UK forces wandering around on our soil with guns...

Was under the impression that the pre-clearance staff would not be armed. Are they armed in Ireland?

Get rid of APD, now that would be a game changer.

Indeed!

[Suzeman]

Well Suzeman i bow to your knowledge of the subject, clearly i have missed something as i have not seen one single reference to this until now.

Nor have I and I suspect that there hasn't been anything.

Whilst I fully appreciate they not going to email us the minutes of every meeting i would have thought it would at least have been mentioned in the same way that other "salient messages" are released to press home a point or lobby for indirect support as clearly MAN would benefit from such an arrangement "at the point negotiations opened".

Whilst it is clearly only a small part of a negotiation ...... lobbying a government dept to show your interest via subtle comment in the media is usually a part of that process.

If things are proceeding OK, why bother to use the media - keep your powder dry. Sometimes exposing things in the media can be counter productive, especially if there are lots of sensitivities involved. I've seen things go horribly wrong as a result. In addition, leaking things via the media can result in you being thought of as untrustworthy by civil servants etc - the very people you are seeking to influence and get on side.

Now lobbying Government Departments in private is a whole different thing and who is to know what has been and is going on - not me or you. But you only get things in the media when the time is right.

Anyway, the latest UK thoughts about pre-clearance started in 2011 (although there had been plenty of discussions years before that when Shannon opened its pre-inspection facility) in the draft aviation policy framework.

In the final policy framework document (March 2013) the following is said

1.68 Outside of the EU, the US remains the single most popular market for air services from the UK, with some 17 million terminal passengers at a number of UK airports flying to and from the US. The US authorities provide immigration, customs and agricultural pre-clearance facilities at 15 airports outside the US, including at Dublin and Shannon Airports in Ireland. These facilities, operated by US Customs and Border Protection (CBP), allow passengers travelling to the US to clear US arrival checks before departure, allowing for easier and quicker connections and arrivals in the US.

1.69 The Government believes that introducing US pre-clearance at the UK
airports could offer significant passenger benefits and improve the overall
end-to-end journey experience for passengers flying from the UK to the US,
whilst at the same time maintaining passenger security and a secure border, which are shared US and UK priorities. The decision on whether to operate such facilities at airports overseas ultimately rests with the US authorities.

1.70 Accordingly, the Government will consider, with the US authorities and
interested stakeholders in the UK, the feasibility of such facilities being made available in the UK, including the practical and legal issues that would need to be addressed.

Now nobody here seems to have posted a link to the Dept of Homeland Security release, so here it is

DHS Announces Intent to Expand Preclearance to 10 New Airports | Homeland Security

And some relevant bits

After nearly a year-long process that began with soliciting expressions of interest from foreign airports, CBP identified these airports in coordination with the Transportation Security Administration and the Department of State (DoS) and prioritized them based on the greatest potential to support security and travel facilitation. More than two dozen foreign airports expressed an interest in opening Preclearance facilities. DHS and DoS evaluated all interested foreign airports in collaboration with stakeholders across the government, and with the U.S. and global aviation industry.

The 10 airports identified for possible preclearance locations include: Brussels Airport, Belgium; Punta Cana Airport, Dominican Republic; Narita International Airport, Japan; Amsterdam Airport Schipol, Netherlands; Oslo Airport, Norway; Madrid-Barajas Airport, Spain; Stockholm Arlanda Airport, Sweden; Istanbul Ataturk Airport, Turkey; and London Heathrow Airport and Manchester Airport, United Kingdom. These countries represent some of the busiest last points of departure to the United States – in 2014, nearly 20 million passengers traveled from these ten airports to the US.

So serious discussions with the US about pre-clearance at MAN and other places has been going on for about a year, Bagso without a hint of anything in the press. MAN's application has been accepted and there is no way this could have happened without there having been intensive discussions with the UK Government who would have to support it. And evaluation teams have been roving round the airport and no doubt looking at plans of how pre-clearance could be achieved. And all without us knowing - shame

What is unclear to me so far is what further negotiations are required, what UK legislative changes are required and the timescales. No doubt it will all come out in the press at the appropriate time...

[750XL]

I fail to see how this could possibly work given MAN's current infrastructure, it's already operating at near capacity during peak times.

[j636]

How will this new development including USPC be funded. MAN charges are low for the type of airport but if they increase how will airlines take it particuarly the locos which could result in them (ryanair for example) stalling or cutting their operations.

Im sure MAN is profitable but can we really see them eating into that and not increase charges.

While capacity is needed, airlines not using USPC may not take kindly to paying for it.

Double edge sword by investing in USPC?

Im sure it wil do fine but MAN will never be a hub for transit passengers apart from Flybe connecting a few points what else. You can argue the Star/Onewoeld but realistically they don't offer connections.

Not wanting to be negative but when will we see these devolpment plans?

[Ian Brooks]

Manchester is very profitable
re transfer passenger yes we have Flybe linking up with quite a few
airlines now on the long haul market and pre clearance will pull passeners
through from Europe as well and Middle East of which there are plenty to go at


Ian

[Mr Mac]

Ian Brooks
Could not see many coming from Mid East given the number of direct flights from there to various US hubs. Europe to some degree maybe another matter but even then the time needed to land re board another A/C would make the choice marginal unless US immigration queues get far worse.


Regards
Mr Mac

[backtrack_32]

AA used T1 while yes the taxi way was repaired as it wiped out 44C/44R 47 and 48. Thus meaning the AA A330 had to use 55 as it wouldn't fit on 10. 10 being the easiest accessible for a 767 size aircraft. Now that the taxi way is open again and 49 has being widened, it means that all 3 wide body can park back on t3, 44C, 49 and 55

[MANFOD]

Having been away for a week, it was good to read the official news about Austrian and the interesting comments regarding the possibility of US pre-clearance. I just hope AI doesn't prove to be a 'will they, won't they?' situation like Hainan.

Incidentally, experience of T1 at MAN was pretty good outbound and return.
Departing on a 06.00 TCX flight on a busy Sunday 24th May, the beginning of the school holidays, we were through check-in (c 30 minutes) and security (10 minutes) comfortably under 45 minutes. I noted that a TCX flight at 06.15 was their 5th departure of the morning!).

Arrived back 20 minutes early yesterday at 12.20, a short wait at Border Control (e-passport gates were working but we didn't use them) and our bags (admittedly some of the earliest) were through 25 minutes after landing.

The only negative was that one of the 3 lifts from ground to level 5 is still out of commission so the queues there were disappointing to see. I assume they are being refitted in turn but why does it take so long for each? I must admit it's not helped by folk like us making our way to departure level to be picked up!

Back to pre-clearance, I hope possible revised plans to accommodate it don't push back the overall terminal redevelopment. While waiting to board for our flight on the Sunday it looked to me that every stand on T1 was occupied as well as 100/101? Couldn't see T2 but T3 stands were well filled including the remote ones 56-58.

[MAN2SIN2BKK2FRA]

Could the cunning plan hinted by Suzeman concern the potential satellite on Terminal 2 having an additional departure level similar to the designs of the new terminals at Frankfurt and Munich to deal with the segregation of Shengen and non-Schengen flights using the same gates?

[Bagso]

Redefining airport hubs: (Self)-connectivity: the next vital piece in the industry?s advancement | CAPA - Centre for Aviation


Could the cunning plan also facilitate some form of LCC /legacy /LCC at MAN ?

I think its the LGW timetable that shows "all possible" permutations rather than just traditional codeshares.

The FlyBe network would be ripe for exploitation !

[Suzeman]

Could the cunning plan hinted by Suzeman concern the potential satellite on Terminal 2 having an additional departure level similar to the designs of the new terminals at Frankfurt and Munich to deal with the segregation of Shengen and non-Schengen flights using the same gates?

Just for the avoidance of doubt, I am assuming MAN have a cunning plan to re-develop the terminals only through what I have read here and elsewhere and have no insider knowledge of what is happening.

But assuming they do (and I hope so!), I'm sure vertical segregation for different categories of passenger will be a feature as will a certain amount of flexibility (which of course costs more) as the rules and regulations are constantly changing as, of course, is the nature of the business as the link posted by Bagso shows.

[LAX_LHR]

Sir Richard Leese has just 'tweeted' that an announcement will be made tomorrow regarding 'modernising Manchester airport'.


This could be the big rebuild.

[eggc]

Indeed it is LAX_LHR...at long last.

T2 to be extended and airlines shifted there while T1 and T3 are worked upon...is my guess anyway.

Not long to wait to find out for sure...

[MANFOD]

If this is the big announcement, apart from the terminal infrastructure plans themselves, two key ingredients will be the time scale and how to not only maintain operations but to continue to grow during the process.

[LAX_LHR]

The main hint so far were the words:

''The central terminal area will become more intensively developed, so that we make the most efficient and effective use of our finite land resource''

And good news that the infamous 'aircraft stands used as car parks' may be coming to an end:

''We will still need to increase the car parking capacity in line with our transport objectives of providing enough space to meet demand on site and reducing the amount of ‘kiss and fly’ and taxi use.
Certain uses may well have to consolidate or even locate off-site in order that we can develop the airport core business''

[Betablockeruk]

£1bn Manchester Airport transformation: Super-sized terminal, faster security, more passengers, more routes - Manchester Evening News

[Armodeen]

Looks and sounds fantastic! Am just waiting to hear the details.. Number of stands for what aircraft types etc.

But hooray! Finally! And work is to start in 9 months!