Effect of Scottish independence on Scottish aviation?
Oh Dave, that is a quite mischievous and misleading question. As far as I am aware neither Canada nor Australia nor any other portion of British territories overseas have ever been considered as part of Great Britain.
Her Majesty is specifically referred to as Queen of Canada and separately Queen of Australia.
Her Majesty is specifically referred to as Queen of Canada and separately Queen of Australia.
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From a selfish point of view, as someone who lives in Scotland, I'm worried about what my opportunities would be if Scotland vote yes. Whether or not this would affect my chances in getting into the cockpit through programmes like BAFPP / easyJet MPL I don't know, however I really hope that it wouldn't.
To add some substance to this debate, however, if Scotland votes to become independent, the government has stated that APD will be quickly reduced by 50% with the view of abolishing it completely.
To add some substance to this debate, however, if Scotland votes to become independent, the government has stated that APD will be quickly reduced by 50% with the view of abolishing it completely.
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Any reduction in APD by a future Scottish government will be countered by the UK government. In fact the Scottish government are keen to introduce a hotel bedroom tax instead. Out of the frying pan and into the fire? Just a thought
but, isn't being part of the UK big kitty subsiding what Scotland enjoys already?Could, would, a Scottish government support the current welfare state.?
but, isn't being part of the UK big kitty subsiding what Scotland enjoys already?Could, would, a Scottish government support the current welfare state.?
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Typical Jocks; act first, think later
From what I can see this referendum is all about football and winning the World Cup.
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Well I hope they vote 'No' but if they elect to divorce the UK they can sort it out themselves. I'm sure they'll be able to afford whatever they need, because they will have their oil. I am a bit confused though. I thought I understood that the oil revenue would be 15% of GDP. Listening to the SNP I roughly calculate that post independence it will suddenly increase and provide about 85% of the extra money they will have to find. They can't be lying, they're politicians. If they can't afford it they can always allow EASA to administer Scottish aviation...but then they wouldn't really be independent.
Not having a pop at anybody in particular but I really hate this 'rUK' nonsense. The name of the country is the UK. If the Scots vote 'Yes', they will leave the UK and what is left will be...the UK.
Except that it isn't. The name (at present) is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Again, UK is just a handy abbreviation and would presumably continue to be used, albeit with a different meaning, if the Scots vote to leave.
Great Britain means England Wales and Scotland. The term Britain used to be applied to mean Wales, and subsequently it meant England and Wales. It has fallen out of use as such, but could be resurrected as the United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland.....
If the vote goes to a Yes, i think there will be retrenchment of UK airlines from Scotland. At present as EU operators, we can fly EU-EU, and EU-non EU. However if Scotland does go, and as is suspected ceases to be part of the EU, it restricts where EU airlines can fly from EDI etc.
There won't be any issues flying Scotland-EU, but Scotland-non EU will be difficult for EU airlines. There's a lot of charter trade from Scotland to Egypt & Turkey that have to find another option.
There won't be any issues flying Scotland-EU, but Scotland-non EU will be difficult for EU airlines. There's a lot of charter trade from Scotland to Egypt & Turkey that have to find another option.
Interestingly, if Scotland becomes independant, but retains the Royal Family, they remain within Great Britain a term which was coined after the union of the crowns before the union of the countries. The term United Kingdom of Great Britain was not used until after the union of the two countries and after the union of the two Parliaments.
Britain is a derivation of the Roman name of an area they controlled; 'major' for the parts of theses islands and 'minor' for the parts now in France - Brittany now. The parts of our islands included areas north of Hadrian's wall, not all of what is now Wales and most of what is now England. To equate the Roman term Britain to current political boundaries is rather pointless. To be British is to be a subject of Her Majesty and from Great Britain, thus someone from an independant Scotland under the crown would still be British as well as Scottish whether we, or they, like it or not.
Pedant hat now off!
Britain is a derivation of the Roman name of an area they controlled; 'major' for the parts of theses islands and 'minor' for the parts now in France - Brittany now. The parts of our islands included areas north of Hadrian's wall, not all of what is now Wales and most of what is now England. To equate the Roman term Britain to current political boundaries is rather pointless. To be British is to be a subject of Her Majesty and from Great Britain, thus someone from an independant Scotland under the crown would still be British as well as Scottish whether we, or they, like it or not.
Pedant hat now off!
Ironically the concept of "the union" was originally the idea of a Scot: James VI/I, a man way ahead of his time and about 100 years ahead of the Parliaments.
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He was the man who went against his mother's wishes and broke 'The Auld Alliance' Scotland had with France (principally against England.) An alliance in which, at one point, the nations shared joint citizenship. Hence the term a French Haggis.
A pawn of circumstance?
Avoid imitations
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I wonder how a separated Scotland will be able to pay for changing to its new administration. Not only their government and health services, but the entire civil service, airports authority, customs control, education, police, fire and rescue services, prison facilities, border control, DVLA, etc.
All this will come at extra cost, against what is most likely to be a falling GDP.
Has Salmond and his yes voters really thought this through from a practical and financial basis? Will these impressionable 16 year old voters he is trying to recruit have considered what tertiary education fees might have to apply to themselves and their offspring in the not too distant future? Salmond's vision of a bright new future will have to paid for on the never never. When governments start spending, the people pay whether they like it or not. History shows over and over again that what politicians promise before being elected to leadership is seldom carried through once they start polishing their trousers on a comfy seat...
All this will come at extra cost, against what is most likely to be a falling GDP.
Has Salmond and his yes voters really thought this through from a practical and financial basis? Will these impressionable 16 year old voters he is trying to recruit have considered what tertiary education fees might have to apply to themselves and their offspring in the not too distant future? Salmond's vision of a bright new future will have to paid for on the never never. When governments start spending, the people pay whether they like it or not. History shows over and over again that what politicians promise before being elected to leadership is seldom carried through once they start polishing their trousers on a comfy seat...
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"History shows over and over again that what politicians promise before being elected to leadership is seldom carried through once they start polishing their trousers on a comfy seat..."
Couldn't agree more - thats why Cameron, Clegg, Milliband cannot be trusted in supposedly guaranteeing more powers to the Scottish Parliament in the event of a No vote. Anyway should this thread not be on Jet Blast?
Couldn't agree more - thats why Cameron, Clegg, Milliband cannot be trusted in supposedly guaranteeing more powers to the Scottish Parliament in the event of a No vote. Anyway should this thread not be on Jet Blast?
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The media suggests that Scotland makes a net contribution to the London coffers, as opposed to say Wales and NI who don't , both being heavily subsidised by London. However, in terms of a Yes clearly making a net contribution to the whole of the UK may not mean a surplus or balancing of the books in an independent Scotland due to extra costs away from London in administering itself.
That said there are many levers that an independent Scotland could pull to drive the economy;
- reduction in APD to drive airline operations and hence tourism
- reduction in corporation tax to stimulate direct foreign investment
- use the universities to make Scotland a destination for international students, Ireland has done this and as a result we have strong population of students from all over the world especially places like South America, China etc. who spend money in the economy
From a business and aviation perspective, despite the scare mongering from London et al. There are a list of reasons for cooperation in the event of independence.
Tourism marketing; like Ireland and Northern Ireland, working together on tourism initiatives abroad makes sense as most visitors to NI come via Dublin. In the same way that London is often the starting point or end point on a tourists trip to the UK
There is every reason why the UK would cooperate with Scotland should it become independent . And Europe , I see membership coming soon and this bringing benefits.
Aviation most likely would grow , easyJet as an example have said nothing will change and they intend to remain Scotland's largest operator .
Good luck to the Scots, living in a democracy the people get to decide. From my perspective, my interest is to see what happens in the event of independence.. What will happen? The history books will read amazingly and from an Irish perspective this has huge implications. Alas, I think it will be marginal and a No vote .... This time next week things could be very different !
That said there are many levers that an independent Scotland could pull to drive the economy;
- reduction in APD to drive airline operations and hence tourism
- reduction in corporation tax to stimulate direct foreign investment
- use the universities to make Scotland a destination for international students, Ireland has done this and as a result we have strong population of students from all over the world especially places like South America, China etc. who spend money in the economy
From a business and aviation perspective, despite the scare mongering from London et al. There are a list of reasons for cooperation in the event of independence.
Tourism marketing; like Ireland and Northern Ireland, working together on tourism initiatives abroad makes sense as most visitors to NI come via Dublin. In the same way that London is often the starting point or end point on a tourists trip to the UK
There is every reason why the UK would cooperate with Scotland should it become independent . And Europe , I see membership coming soon and this bringing benefits.
Aviation most likely would grow , easyJet as an example have said nothing will change and they intend to remain Scotland's largest operator .
Good luck to the Scots, living in a democracy the people get to decide. From my perspective, my interest is to see what happens in the event of independence.. What will happen? The history books will read amazingly and from an Irish perspective this has huge implications. Alas, I think it will be marginal and a No vote .... This time next week things could be very different !
Last edited by EI-BUD; 14th Sep 2014 at 02:17. Reason: Typo
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Give it a couple of years and the rest of the UK will move their clocks forward by an hour which has been prevented in the past by Scottish concerns about dark mornings.
I look forward to double summer time but this is the only good thing to come out of Scottish Independence.
I suspect the Scottish would then have no choice but to follow but if they didn't it could make a difference on where aircraft were based putting more aircraft north of the border for inter-UK services.
I look forward to double summer time but this is the only good thing to come out of Scottish Independence.
I suspect the Scottish would then have no choice but to follow but if they didn't it could make a difference on where aircraft were based putting more aircraft north of the border for inter-UK services.
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Back to the original question....
Assuming a yes vote, it can safely be assumed that a newly independent Scotland will be outside the EU, at least for the time being.
What about the BASAs? All the UK's are written by CAA/DfT for the UK, and it would be safe to assume that rUK (and I don't like that expression either) are not going to hand a slice of those rights over - I'm not sure that legally they even could, they are not granted as marketable rights. Many of the traffic rights have been hard won, and more than a few of the other parties would like some of them renegotiated (remember Bermuda 2, anyone?)
Not being part of the EU, new independent Scotland also has no Open Skies agreement, so flying to countries that are EU (such as France, or England, or Wales) suddenly needs a new BASA, and designation of carriers, and FOPs. Well, silly question - who on the Scottish side is going to negotiate them? A new Scottish CAA or a newly empowered Scottish DfT?
Why do I get the horrid feeling that all this is another thing that Wee Eck and his mates haven't go their heads around yet? Or worse - do they even know they will have a problem?
Gulp.
TA
Assuming a yes vote, it can safely be assumed that a newly independent Scotland will be outside the EU, at least for the time being.
What about the BASAs? All the UK's are written by CAA/DfT for the UK, and it would be safe to assume that rUK (and I don't like that expression either) are not going to hand a slice of those rights over - I'm not sure that legally they even could, they are not granted as marketable rights. Many of the traffic rights have been hard won, and more than a few of the other parties would like some of them renegotiated (remember Bermuda 2, anyone?)
Not being part of the EU, new independent Scotland also has no Open Skies agreement, so flying to countries that are EU (such as France, or England, or Wales) suddenly needs a new BASA, and designation of carriers, and FOPs. Well, silly question - who on the Scottish side is going to negotiate them? A new Scottish CAA or a newly empowered Scottish DfT?
Why do I get the horrid feeling that all this is another thing that Wee Eck and his mates haven't go their heads around yet? Or worse - do they even know they will have a problem?
Gulp.
TA
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Scotland is only voting on leaving United Kingdom, not voting on leaving the EU. Scotland is part of EU today and will stay within EU if their population vote yes to independence from the UK. The question would more be, would Scotland become a part of Schengen? Then a new Hadrian's wall may have to be erected - this time with the barbarians on the south side of the border 
What will happen if the rest UK decide to have to an EU referendum and the result would be to leave the EU? Then the rest UK will be without an Open Skies agreement with the US, and not Scotland.
What will happen if the rest UK decide to have to an EU referendum and the result would be to leave the EU? Then the rest UK will be without an Open Skies agreement with the US, and not Scotland.
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Quote:
Don't believe everything that Wee Eck tells you...
If rUK leaves the EU, then it too will have to negotiate with the existing EU states, since it will be outside of the EU common sky. Won't affect US flights, since these are most certainly not open skies - there is a BASA between the UK and the US.
TA
The President of the European Commission Jose Manuel Barroso, has said it would be "extremely difficult, if not impossible" for an independent Scotland to join the EU.
If rUK leaves the EU, then it too will have to negotiate with the existing EU states, since it will be outside of the EU common sky. Won't affect US flights, since these are most certainly not open skies - there is a BASA between the UK and the US.
TA
Last edited by TwinAisle; 14th Sep 2014 at 11:23.
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Remember ABC (Anything But Chardonnay )
Now,so my Scottish wife tells me, it is
ABS (no not on a car) but
Anybody But Salmond.
All still on a knife edge- and back to topic,Aviation will be the least of their worries if it is a Yes vote GF.
SSF
Now,so my Scottish wife tells me, it is
ABS (no not on a car) but
Anybody But Salmond.
All still on a knife edge- and back to topic,Aviation will be the least of their worries if it is a Yes vote GF.
SSF
wee nicky sturgeon will sell prestwick for two scottish pounds, or whateva the currency will be called and a bag of sweeties to seal the deal in event that the currency is worthless....and claim she has made for scotland a 100% profit on a dying airport.
President Alex of Salmond will proclaim free trade at Abbotsinch International to be rename Salmond International ensuring that all Russian carriers are given discounts to allow easy access to their new sea cruise base at Saint Faslane.
Meanwhile despite various efforts to retain operations at the capital city of Edinburgh - the lack of tourists and existing banking sector results in partial moth balling of the airport. Aberdeen is permited to continue to fly oil related flights although the oil companies may have different ideas.......
President Alex of Salmond will proclaim free trade at Abbotsinch International to be rename Salmond International ensuring that all Russian carriers are given discounts to allow easy access to their new sea cruise base at Saint Faslane.
Meanwhile despite various efforts to retain operations at the capital city of Edinburgh - the lack of tourists and existing banking sector results in partial moth balling of the airport. Aberdeen is permited to continue to fly oil related flights although the oil companies may have different ideas.......
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Give it a couple of years and the rest of the UK will move their clocks forward by an hour which has been prevented in the past by Scottish concerns about dark mornings.
Scotland is only voting on leaving United Kingdom, not voting on leaving the EU. Scotland is part of EU today and will stay within EU if their population vote yes to independence from the UK. The question would more be, would Scotland become a part of Schengen? Then a new Hadrian's wall may have to be erected - this time with the barbarians on the south side of the border
As for Schengen which non-EU members can join (Iceland, Norway), suspect it's most unlikely.
It has not been mentioned but one has to suspect that "wee Eck" expects that something similar to the Statute of Westminster 1936 and Section 2(1) of the Ireland Act 1949 could apply to Scotland in its relations with the UK.
Effectively these laws provided for equal status for citizens in the UK and Ireland and for them not be regarded as foreigners in the other country.
Would expect the provisions of the Common Travel Area to apply as well, so no Schengen and no border guards.
President Alex of Salmond will proclaim free trade at Abbotsinch International to be rename Salmond International ensuring that all Russian carriers are given discounts to allow easy access to their new sea cruise base at Saint Faslane.
"Abbotsinch" is a perfectly good name, but is the airport named after the pub, or the pub named after the airport?
