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Another runway at Heathrow

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Another runway at Heathrow

Old 29th Jul 2015, 15:43
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All this talk about widening the M25 for Heathrow, but how does everyone think people will get to Gatwick?!
The section of the M23 from Gatwick-M25 is already heavily congested, then all the vehicles from the West, and North will have to.....go round the M25/ M4 and go past Heathrow, or round the east and the heavily congested Thames crossings.
The M25 round junction 9 is also a nightmare and one of the most difficult to get built in the first place.
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Old 30th Jul 2015, 01:41
  #482 (permalink)  
 
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Here's an interesting twist from today's E'nin Stannit.

Nicola Sturgeon: Decision over third Heathrow runway will be decided by SNP vote

Quote:
Nicola Sturgeon today blew the battle between Heathrow and Gatwick wide open by saying her 56 MPs at Westminster will vote for the airport that gives a better deal for Scots.

In an exclusive interview with the Standard, SNP transport spokesman Drew Hendry declared the party was “neutral” between a third runway at Heathrow and a second at Gatwick.

The SNP would decide which airport to back after hearing how each would answer Scottish demands for cheaper ticket prices and guaranteed connections with international flights.
Article continues at
Nicola Sturgeon: Decision over third Heathrow runway will be decided by SNP vote - London - News - London Evening Standard

All good spectator sport!
Not much to get excited about, Scotland wants LHR expansion as much (or, if you believe the propaganda, as little) as any other part of the UK, and the SNP are basking in the glory of having 56 out of 59 Scots MPs. So expect controversial comments.

The SNP would be voting on this issue even under their own old rules (only voting on matters affecting Scotland).

LHR expansion is a UK issue and effects all four constituent counties.

Apparently 9 out of 10 MPs would vote in favour. If this is in fact the case and all the SNP were against it becomes a little over 8 of of 10.

Time will tell. Could be wrong, but have a feeling that most SNP back LHR expansion.




All this talk about widening the M25 for Heathrow, but how does everyone think people will get to Gatwick?!
The section of the M23 from Gatwick-M25 is already heavily congested, then all the vehicles from the West, and North will have to.....go round the M25/ M4 and go past Heathrow, or round the east and the heavily congested Thames crossings.
The M25 round junction 9 is also a nightmare and one of the most difficult to get built in the first place.
Indeed, perhaps we shouldn't make the situation any worse by burdening LGW with a second rwy.......

It's also bad news for road travellers between LGW and Croydon/London as the M23 is a waste of space.

Forget London, the M23 doesn't even reach Croydon (stops 10 mi. short)!
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Old 30th Jul 2015, 12:19
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Businesses are pushing for Cameron to pull his finger out and make the decision to approve Heathrow expansion.
Business leaders call for a swift decision on Heathrow Airport expansion - Business News - Business - The Independent
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Old 30th Jul 2015, 14:36
  #484 (permalink)  
 
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Has anybody else on the AA&R forum spotted the thread entitled: La Guardia to be completely rebuilt?

La Guardia is located in NEW YORK, like London a global mega-city. High real-estate prices, first-world wage structures and aspirations. Complex legal system.

And the projected price-tag for a total rebuild of La Guardia? That would be 2.56Bn based upon 2021 completion.

Do you realise one could build 250 Metres of runway at LHR for that sort of money???
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Old 30th Jul 2015, 15:39
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While I share Shed's general view about the cost of the LHR R3 project being excessive, let's not pretend that HAL is just building a runway.

The new runway is only 1% of the total scheme costs, or 182million according to https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...est-runway.pdf

As for LGA, my understanding is that the scheme doesn't add any capacity at all. It just makes the place a bit nicer for passengers, as well as improving the taxiway layout so as to reduce delays. Whereas the LHR R3 scheme adds capacity of 50 million annual passengers, albeit rather expensively...

Last edited by BasilBush; 30th Jul 2015 at 15:51.
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Old 31st Jul 2015, 13:42
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(ShareCast News) - The chief executive of British Airways owner International Airlines Group on Friday said the group does not support the building of a new runway at London's Heathrow Airport due to the costs the airline would incur.
"We think the costs associated with the third runway are outrageous and certainly from an IAG point of view we will not be supporting it and we will not be paying for it," William Walsh said.

If the expansion is approved, airlines would have to foot the some of the costs of the runway, but Walsh opposed this idea.
"We're not going to support something that increases our costs," he said.

The comments came the same day IAG reported its profits for the second quarter, posting operating profit of $530m, beating forecasts of 494m and 39% higher than the 380m in the same period last year.

BA still seem to be unsure as to whether R3 is a threat or an opportunity. They are terrified of the impact on their inefficient short haul operation that would result from easyJet entering the LHR market, as has been proposed. Either way, BA's emphasis on the costs of R3 might give some hurry up to the CAA in ensuring that HAL isn't just given a blank cheque to build what it likes and then reclaim the costs from airlines/pax. It's about time the CAA (as regulator) paid some attention to the fact that its primary duty is to consumers as opposed to airlines or airport operators. That means both keeping costs down and ensuring greater competition by standing up to the likes of BA who just want to perpetuate their dominant position.

Last edited by BasilBush; 31st Jul 2015 at 13:53.
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 16:17
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BA is against a rd runway

BA drops bombshell on Heathrow?s third runway | The Times
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 00:20
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Some fairly strong talk there from what is undoubtedly a powerful voice...

Indicating that International Airlines Group is prepared to go to the courts to prevent the expansion of Heathrow, Willie Walsh, its chief executive, said: “We will challenge it by any and every avenue open to us."

Not going to help LHR's case one bit. Think Willie is scared of easyJet
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 02:56
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BA and IAG have been pretty much on the fence, at least publicly, throughout the whole Davies Commission debate. In an interview with the Guardian last year WW even went as far as saying that LHR R3 was "a lost cause". However in the same article he was also against a second runway for LGW, and had previously spoken out against Boris Island as well !!

This latest tough talk attributed to WW could be an aggressive negotiating strategy to get someone other than IAG and its customers to foot more of the bill for R3 - which could only mean either HAL itself or the taxpayer ?

Or maybe WW really does think he now has enough LHR slots up his sleeve to support maintaining the status quo at LHR, and pursue growth for IAG by other means such as more airline acquisitions and creation of alternative IAG hubs elsewhere, like he has almost achieved with EI and Dublin ?

Last edited by Logohu; 2nd Aug 2015 at 06:05. Reason: typo
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 07:30
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What Willy W is really saying, as it appears the only way the R3 project is going to be financed is by a hefty chunk from the airlines, then as BA has 50% of the LHR movements then ego 50% of the airline cash is required from BA. He has said repeatedly he will not be putting money into the project. So it will have to be government money, have they any?
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 09:52
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It won't be Government (ie our) money. If BA aren't prepared to pay then I'm sure other airlines will, given the yields available at LHR. It's all a bit of a bluff by BA, who (as has been noted) are terrified of easyJet.

But I do agree with BA's argument that the project is unnecessarily expensive. It's a rerun of T5, with the regulator (CAA) failing to get a grip before the costs get out of hand.
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 10:09
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Easyjet are a problem however I think there would be much bigger operators who would cause serious damage to BA.
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 10:54
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Easyjet are a problem however I think there would be much bigger operators who would cause serious damage to BA.
`````for instance?

A very significant percentage of BA traffic is actually inter Europe point to point and the current disruptive forces of flexible fares operators including Eayjet pose more threat to BA than even the ME3 and competing alliances via their own hub and spoke systems in the London markets.

Easy jet are no mino to be ignored -
In fact IAG know threat very well and Vueling are the tool to attack and destabilize this market.
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 10:55
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This is an interesting development because it's the first time WW has said 'We don't think this should happen' as opposed to 'We don't believe this will happen'.

HAL doesn't really have any money itself. There are only two sources of funding--- taxpayers or travellers. Unless the vast majority is traveller funded the project won't happen. It is up to the CAA and the Government to confirm Davies's conclusion that the project is specified correctly and that it's worth 10 extra per traveller to HAL for ever.

There is going to be ferocious lobbying on that question, among others, over the next few months.
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 11:03
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Further that point to point full paying clientele are absolutely essential to maintaining the effectiveness of the European network and those lesser paying feed traffic onto the mainly North Atlantic long haul.

The full fare European travel disappears the route break and feed on the long haul goes away.

That's the real threat.

Not the ME3 picking up regional traffic over the sandpits.
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 11:06
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The problem with the CAA's approach is that is essentially reactive, rather than proactive. By waiting until HAL has put forward its (expensive) scheme it makes it very difficult to achieve any meaningful savings. What the CAA really needs to do is to say to HAL that its maximum charges can be no more than x, based on realistic benchmarks, and then challenge HAL to come up with a scheme that is consistent with that price.

Otherwise it's just a cost-plus approach, which inevitably leads to gold plating.
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 11:07
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HAL doesn't really have any money itself. There are only two sources of funding--- taxpayers or travellers. Unless the vast majority is traveller funded the project won't happen. It is up to the CAA and the Government to confirm Davies's conclusion that the project is specified correctly and that it's worth 10 extra per traveller to HAL for ever.
Actually not necessarily HAL can raise a shed load on money via bonds and other financial vehicles over extensively long terms perhaps 50 years to redeem time.
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 11:10
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I think the point that anothertyke was making is that ultimately it's the consumer that pays HAL's charges, through air fares.
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 12:17
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Indeed. HAL can finance the billions provided the market believes the ultimate customers will fund HAL at the assured regulated rate.

It would be really interesting to hear from other airlines--- Lufthansa, United, Emirates, Virgin/Delta etc. Do they want the scheme?
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 13:17
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Easy jet are no mino to be ignored -
In fact IAG know threat very well and Vueling are the tool to attack and destabilize this market.
Easyjet tend to shy away from pressure quickly and at LHR you and themselves would be mistaken if only EZY will enter LHR, EZY will have their own fight at LHR not just with BA. Didn't take long to drive them out o Rome or at least a big slice of operations and be sure FR and Vueling will be there as well and FR may say no now but it will happen.

A very significant percentage of BA traffic is actually inter Europe point to point and the current disruptive forces of flexible fares operators including Eayjet pose more threat to BA than even the ME3 and competing alliances via their own hub and spoke systems in the London markets.
An influx of long haul capacity east and west will destroy yield especially up front.

The biggest problem is if easyjet were to interline with other carriers which is only a matter of time so certain when lhr runway opens if it goes ahead.
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