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Old 30th Jul 2017, 19:45
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Will the 26 extension permit two aircraft to line up on the runway and with track split, reduced separation on departure? This could well increase peak flow rates if the departures are sent out in the correct order toward the runway?
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Old 30th Jul 2017, 20:02
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Normal & accepted practice @ larger airports.... ))
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Old 30th Jul 2017, 20:47
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Originally Posted by Lee Baker Street
No! This is an important issue!

Today at 06.04am passengers left London St Pancras bound for London Luton Airport. The service was an all stopper service calling at all stations to Luton.

On arrival at St Albans Station all passengers were told to leave the train!

Many but not all passengers were lucky to board a bus (requested in an emergency situation) to collect them and take them to Luton Airport Parkway due to 'YET' a fault in signalling problems on this line!

On listening to conversations many passengers were concerned / panicky as to whether they will miss their flights!

BUT! I repeat BUT!

The train that offloaded them was then used and seconded to change from St Albans platform 2 and re-possition to platform 1 at St Albans to operate a service south bound to London!

In effect 'stuff' passengers bound for Luton Airport!

This is not acceptable! This is becoming 'common place'!

It is time for Luton Airport Management to either call for the franchise called Govia Trains to be terminated or it is time for London Luton Airport management to start advertising that the Govia trains operating on the Thameslink Line are not fit for purpose and that no passenger should depend on the service!

As someone who pays the community charges here in Luton and as I and all community charge payers in Luton have a vested interest in London Luton Luton Airport that gives me and everyone else the right to declare that the Thamesink Line is no longer fit for purpose!

The current airport franchise operator is starting to embarrasses me!

I will be contacting one airport Director (who I have known many years/ decades) to explain this mess in terms of the train services and lack of at minimum 1000 seats for passengers who use the terminal building! It is time the airport became a 'civilized' airport!

What I witnessed this morning equates to 'enough is enough'!
Lee Baker Street - That is because there was a signalling fault at Harpenden, Most Trains from London were terminating at St Albans then heading back and trains from the North were terminating at Luton and then heading back. I was one of the lucky passengers to have my journey extended and ended up putting my bike in the boot of a taxi provided by Thameslink
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Old 31st Jul 2017, 05:51
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The bigger issue is getting the passengers from Parkway to the terminal and back. This is part down to the airport and part down to Govia who are the franchise operator of Thameslink.

Dealing with the airport first, and I don't know why I put myself through the pain of checking as it depresses me, is the morning traffic peak where traffic grinds to a halt from Parkway to the terminal. The shuttle buses are sardine cans and a prolonged journey time must be hell on earth. The service not only becomes extended but there are then long periods when there are no buses as they are lost in traffic so the queues for the buses also becomes extended. If I was arriving at Parkway at around 6:30 in the morning I would allow myself an hour to do the last mile and if I had no luggage I would walk.

The pain doesn't end on just the journey into the airport, the pain extends to leaving the airport as well now since the exit route from the bus station means that buses have to queue to get onto the one way system where they meet again the traffic trying to get into the drop off zone. Once past that there is the queue for the exit barriers. Now the queue for the exit barriers can happen anytime of the day or the night. It can range from nothing to around 10 minutes which is the point where the barriers are lifted to relieve the traffic congestion.

As has been mentioned before there is a quick exit route from the bus station that crosses the dual carriageway that leads directly to the tunnel but it has been blocked off.

Now we come to Govia, a company that promised much and has delivered little.

They inherited the old franchise operators shuttle bus fleet that many years ago consisted of pure high capacity bendy buses. Before the franchise ended the bendy bus fleet was reduced from 4 to 2 and supplemented by 2 shoppers buses in their nice London red bus colour. It is worth noting that when the pure bendy bus fleet was introduced this was the point that charges were introduced between the station and the airport, as the charges were to pay for the upgrade of the fleet that has since been reduced.

Now the fleet seems to be 3 bendy buses and 2 shoppers buses although it is quite often that not all 3 bendy buses are in service at the same time. It used to be the case that if a passenger was lucky enough to catch a high capacity bendy bus then their luck was in as these buses did not suffer from overcrowding. Now even during the off peak times every bus regardless of capacity can be crammed to the roof with less and less buses traveling with spare seats.

It is going to be a long 4 year wait until the new DART link is in operation but in the meantime all the shuttle buses need to go back to being high capacity and there needs to be twice as many of them. My view is that there is a conspiracy between the airport and Govia of inaction in trying to improve the service and the lives of the passengers using the shuttle buses. Even the covered walkway from the terminal to the bus stop has not been put in and with the bus station contractor gone it looks like it won't happen either. For the airport this mean that they have managed to save a few £££ on the original plans.

Last edited by LTNman; 31st Jul 2017 at 06:45.
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Old 31st Jul 2017, 08:34
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Airports truly wanting passengers to use public transport is like turkeys voting for Christmas. What is one of the biggest revenue earners for airports in the UK these days? I'll give you a clue, it isn't a bus service from a station. They all say they want better access for people using public transport, but do they really mean it? Spending on public transport infrastructure at and around airports is low down the priority list for the airports, mainly done only when the roads get really clogged up (LTN) or to meet air quality guidelines (LHR 3rd runway)
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Old 31st Jul 2017, 08:50
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I thought that at many airports the longstay parking was provided by independent operators who provide shuttle services to and from the airport, and so provides little income for the airport. It is simply impossible to provide on-site, longstay parking for an airport above a certain size. It has to get most of its PAX to use public transport.
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Old 31st Jul 2017, 15:52
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Originally Posted by Buster the Bear
Will the 26 extension permit two aircraft to line up on the runway and with track split, reduced separation on departure? This could well increase peak flow rates if the departures are sent out in the correct order toward the runway?
In theory and as what happens now with one backtracking and one departing from Alpha yes but it will rely on both entrances to the runway being far enough away for jet blast reasons (99.9% sure it will, I don't hold the figures for it though).

In terms of track splits it currently relies on an even split of departure routes to present a good order to the air controller however when it's a long queue of Wizz you don't have many options.

It'll provide flexibility if you cannot depart number 1 in the queue and can use the other entrance to utilise the runway. Also, arrival gaps will be able to be reduced permanently.

Normal & accepted practice @ larger airports.... ))
If this was in relation to the above question then it has nothing to do with the size of the airport.
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Old 31st Jul 2017, 16:06
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ows about busier?.....))
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Old 31st Jul 2017, 18:09
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I thought that at many airports the longstay parking was provided by independent operators who provide shuttle services to and from the airport, and so provides little income for the airport.
At Luton the car parks are owned by the airport but the staff and coaches are provided by a third party.

Regarding the comment that the airport prefers people to park their cars rather than use public transport that would be true if Luton had the car parks but it doesn't. Also there is the issue of too many cars arriving at the airport at peak times which is probably the main reason for the council spending £200 million on a rail link to the station.
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Old 31st Jul 2017, 19:05
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Guys,I worked in ATC for over 40 years,nearly 30 as a controller in the London Terminal Control Area . There are many reasons why departure intervals may be extended. Not always related to do with how"busy"the airfield may be,it can be to give ATC a break on a particular sector,or relieve pressure on an en route "choke point". Example,BPK,aka Brookmans Park VOR,a major navaid to the SW of Stansted where a number of departure routes from various airfields in the LTMA converge.
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Old 31st Jul 2017, 19:20
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I could be wrong but I doubt that would happen at Heathrow so the more minor airports get the pain to keep Heathrow moving?
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Old 31st Jul 2017, 19:25
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Okay to put it even plainer(not a pun) the thought was put forward by Buster Bear that LTN could/should vary departure sequencing when new parts of the airport become available...my comment was too tongue in cheek it appears...What I was aiming at was near neighbour STN has used multiple line ups from multiple holding points(for instance there are 6 departure holding points for RW22@ present with at least one more planned) together with standard left/right..east/west splits for many a year!!...That's all.....))
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Old 31st Jul 2017, 19:43
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LTNman,let me say thanks for your excellent input on this thread. Most welcome. You're not quite on the mark with why delayed departures might occur at "lesser"airports. Even the "Big Boys" (LL& KK)can have MDI's (Minimum Departure Interval))imposed to relieve pressure on Atc sectors for a variety of reasons,peak demand or bad weather for example.
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Old 31st Jul 2017, 19:50
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Thanks for the answers. Everyday I learn a little more.
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Old 31st Jul 2017, 21:16
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Work starts on the new rail link to the airport?

Forgot to mention that today while travelling up New Airport Way I spotted that a single excavator was starting to dig out an existing embankment close to the runway and that a yellow large wheeled soil transporter was moving the soil to the south of the runway. The significance of this is that this is on the route for the new rail link.
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Old 1st Aug 2017, 05:54
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The digging I spotted yesterday is at the location of one of the site compounds for the rail link. The timetable shows general and enabling works starting in October so it is good to see an early start appears to have been made to remove part of an embankment to create some level ground for the compound.

A total of 5 compounds will be created over time of varying sizes. This is one of the bigger ones. Others will be located next to the multistory car park at Parkway. By the new station on the other side of the tracks. In the short term car park by the south stands and a small compound behind the fire station in the mid term car park.
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Old 1st Aug 2017, 08:07
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LTN could/should vary departure sequencing when new parts of the airport become available
Already happens (depends off traffic situation, as with any airport)

neighbour STN has used multiple line ups
Already happens and likely to increase with further flexibility

with standard left/right..east/west splits for many a year
We have for 08 and in the pipeline for 26. However, it doesn't matter how many splits you have when you're landing one after a departure.

I could be wrong but I doubt that would happen at Heathrow so the more minor airports get the pain to keep Heathrow moving?
All the major London airports are happy separated from each other. It's when the smaller ones depart they get in the way whilst they climb through the LTMA. It affects a couple of airports, some more than others, and until the airspace is "upgraded" to suit the year we're in things will remain the same unfortunately.
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Old 1st Aug 2017, 09:24
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Thanks Scrotchidson, always good to get things from someone who is most knowledgeable about ATCO !

It's when the smaller ones depart they get in the way whilst they climb through the LTMA. It affects a couple of airports, some more than others, and until the airspace is "upgraded" to suit the year we're in things will remain the same unfortunately.
I remember a curtain retired Luton ATCO used to say about this, Northolt & City come to mind, I don't envy your 3D puzzle!

Last edited by pabely; 1st Aug 2017 at 10:46.
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Old 1st Aug 2017, 12:55
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Originally Posted by LTNman
Forgot to mention that today while travelling up New Airport Way I spotted that a single excavator was starting to dig out an existing embankment close to the runway and that a yellow large wheeled soil transporter was moving the soil to the south of the runway. The significance of this is that this is on the route for the new rail link.
They are moving the airfield perimeter road to accommodate the rail link route.
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Old 1st Aug 2017, 15:59
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Originally Posted by forest
They are moving the airfield perimeter road to accommodate the rail link route.
That is something I had not even considered but you are correct that they are indeed moving the perimeter road. I will have to have another look to see how far down the new excavations are taking place and whether it indeed misses the camp but I think you are correct as it make perfect sense.

I took a photo on July 3rd showing a new perimeter road being dug from the edge of the mid term car park extension that was put in to replace the lost car park for the 08 taxiway extension. At its closest point to the runway where the existing perimeter road hugs the car park boundary this new road heads off in a straight line following the line of the runway as far as I can tell as it disappears out of view. If it carries on in a straight line it will intercept the old perimeter track.


Hope this Google satellite view link of the area works that shows what I mean of the area before the work started .https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.87.../data=!3m1!1e3 The link takes a few seconds to form.

Last edited by LTNman; 1st Aug 2017 at 16:46.
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