British Airways
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In July and August it has dropped down to 5 flights a day, apart from Mondays and Thursdays where it's 6 and Saturday where it's 4 flights.
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Reference the reduction to LHR-LBA, I'm not surprised as I have flown it usually on a Monday about a dozen times in the past couple of years & rarely has the A319 been more than half full. Whilst the fares were certainly not excessive (usually paid just over £100 for a same day return), I would agree that the lack of an overnight in LBA would have put off many Business types coming down to London. Usually the passenger mix was skewed more to the leisure travelers, specifically those connecting from Australasia, the Indian sub continent & the Far East so I would guess the reduction won't put them off but the 1 flight a day on some days won't work if you just need to go there & back in the same day.
Also, LBA can as many would know be a tricky airport to get into due to being somewhat prone to fog. Have had a couple of experiences of landing difficulties on the BA morning flight, first time we did land but then sat on the runway for a couple of minutes & I couldn't see anything beyond the wing tip. On disembarking I remarked to the Captain I wouldn't drive a car in those conditions that he'd just landed a rather expensive plane in. His reply was "All in a morning's work sir!". The second time after a couple of attempts we diverted to MAN though on that occasion I didn't think the visibility was as poor. That then meant a coach transfer for all my fellow travelers but I was fortunate enough to be able to reorganise my training course to our Manchester site much to the bemusement of my colleague who was going to pick me up at LBA who then had to travel over the Pennines!!
Also, LBA can as many would know be a tricky airport to get into due to being somewhat prone to fog. Have had a couple of experiences of landing difficulties on the BA morning flight, first time we did land but then sat on the runway for a couple of minutes & I couldn't see anything beyond the wing tip. On disembarking I remarked to the Captain I wouldn't drive a car in those conditions that he'd just landed a rather expensive plane in. His reply was "All in a morning's work sir!". The second time after a couple of attempts we diverted to MAN though on that occasion I didn't think the visibility was as poor. That then meant a coach transfer for all my fellow travelers but I was fortunate enough to be able to reorganise my training course to our Manchester site much to the bemusement of my colleague who was going to pick me up at LBA who then had to travel over the Pennines!!
Last edited by ChalfontFlyer; 11th Dec 2017 at 07:40.
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Just had a phone call from Heathrow and T5 is like a war zone with people sleeping on floor, lots of shouting and angry passengers, children crying , toilets blocked, massive queues for food etc etc. Overspill from deicing problems which only seem to have effected BA.
Was this an internal issue ie Do BA do their own deicing or is it subcontracted ?
Either way an utter shambles.
Was this an internal issue ie Do BA do their own deicing or is it subcontracted ?
Either way an utter shambles.
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Navpi
With all shuttle cancelations yesterday and issues with BA T5 today is it any wonder we outside the SE avoid LHR and BA if possible. Navpi as you say what a mess, and the thing is this is not an irreguler avent as it happens with Snow/Wind/Computer faliure but all too reguler to get this SLF anywhere near the place or carrier.
With all shuttle cancelations yesterday and issues with BA T5 today is it any wonder we outside the SE avoid LHR and BA if possible. Navpi as you say what a mess, and the thing is this is not an irreguler avent as it happens with Snow/Wind/Computer faliure but all too reguler to get this SLF anywhere near the place or carrier.
Last edited by Mr Mac; 11th Dec 2017 at 13:54.
The bizarre thing is that BA are perfectly capable of organising deicing/bad weather cover at their overseas outstations through handling agents, where the various elements in my experience always manage things straightforwardly and turn up on time (St Petersburg and Helsinki being my main although not only such experiences), but are incapable of doing so at Heathrow.
We do get winter weather regularly in London. When was the last snowfall day when the BA operation ran straightforwardly ?
We do get winter weather regularly in London. When was the last snowfall day when the BA operation ran straightforwardly ?
Thing is at the likes St Petes and Helsinki BA are probably chucking a handful of airframes a day into the hands of an experienced/practiced set of driving teams.....at LHR BA would be throwing several hundred airframe a day in the direction of teams who see proper snowfall once or twice a winter, if that. I’m sure if enough money was thrown at the driving we wouldn’t see the sort of problems we had yesterday....but someone, somewhere has made a decision (cost v benefit).....
NCL-LHR
Isn't this just the usual seasonal flexing from BA? We currently have a 12.00 AND a 12.05 departure - probably one of those is expendable? 
In July and August it has dropped down to 5 flights a day, apart from Mondays and Thursdays where it's 6 and Saturday where it's 4 flights.
Join Date: Feb 2016
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Regarding disruption, it happens all the time at Terminal 5. As soon as there are delays in getting aircraft away and off stands the operation seizes up as inbound aircraft can’t get on to stands.
Schiphol supplies beds for stranded passengers.
Hundreds of passengers stranded at Schiphol as snow disrupts planes, trains and roads - DutchNews.nl
Can't see BA doing that!
Hundreds of passengers stranded at Schiphol as snow disrupts planes, trains and roads - DutchNews.nl
Can't see BA doing that!
Problem is I think planning to supply beds would, in some quarters, be seen as "planning to fail"....
Choosing my words carefully I'd say it's become a bit of a given now that a descision may have been made somewhere that if the weather falls over the operation suffers badly but the expense will be absorbed...If that's the case some investment needs to be made in the advance provision of free food in case a shorthaul flight get stuck off gate for umpteen hours, better I.T. to allow easier access to info and rebooking, and yes, even camp beds.
I know crews and ground staff were absolute heros over the weekend and went well beyond the extra mile..
Choosing my words carefully I'd say it's become a bit of a given now that a descision may have been made somewhere that if the weather falls over the operation suffers badly but the expense will be absorbed...If that's the case some investment needs to be made in the advance provision of free food in case a shorthaul flight get stuck off gate for umpteen hours, better I.T. to allow easier access to info and rebooking, and yes, even camp beds.
I know crews and ground staff were absolute heros over the weekend and went well beyond the extra mile..
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The problem with the UK isn't that it can't handle a bit of snow, it's that it still surprises everyone that it can't handle a bit of snow. In the South, we get one major snowfall per year maximum, and it's often fairly localised (I live 15 miles south of LHR and didn't get a single flake). Comparing the UK to the likes of Scandinavia and Canada is pointless - they have snow on the ground for 4-5 months of the year in parts, if they weren't better prepared then these countries would be simply inhospitable.
The cost of gearing up the UK's infrastructure for such a rare event is absolutely not worth it, so we need to accept a little bit of disruption on the 1-2 days it happens. It's early December, the quietest time of the year for travel in/out of the UK. As with most disruption at Heathrow (Snow, Wind, LVPs), it can usually be linked back to the lack of runway capacity and terminal space. As soon as aircraft require extra separation or additional time on stand, the lack of extra capacity results in flights needing to be cancelled.
More embarrassing than the UK's ability to handle snow is the keyboard warriors on Twitter complaining about it, as if their life has been ruined because they had to sit on the aircraft for a few extra hours waiting for de-icing. But that's just the world we live in now.
The cost of gearing up the UK's infrastructure for such a rare event is absolutely not worth it, so we need to accept a little bit of disruption on the 1-2 days it happens. It's early December, the quietest time of the year for travel in/out of the UK. As with most disruption at Heathrow (Snow, Wind, LVPs), it can usually be linked back to the lack of runway capacity and terminal space. As soon as aircraft require extra separation or additional time on stand, the lack of extra capacity results in flights needing to be cancelled.
More embarrassing than the UK's ability to handle snow is the keyboard warriors on Twitter complaining about it, as if their life has been ruined because they had to sit on the aircraft for a few extra hours waiting for de-icing. But that's just the world we live in now.
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Yes events do happen and quite right there is little point investing millions for a one off every 5 years BUT the situation here is somewhat odd insofar as T5 and BA or their handler appeared to run out of deicer in 1st week December. We have not had weeks of cold weather so that seems a bit odd ?
Yes I can appreciate the comments if Heathrow as a whole was at a standstill but the rest of the airport appeared to be operating relatively well ?
Yes I can appreciate the comments if Heathrow as a whole was at a standstill but the rest of the airport appeared to be operating relatively well ?
Last edited by Navpi; 12th Dec 2017 at 13:13.
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Thing is at the likes St Petes and Helsinki BA are probably chucking a handful of airframes a day into the hands of an experienced/practiced set of driving teams.....at LHR BA would be throwing several hundred airframe a day in the direction of teams who see proper snowfall once or twice a winter, if that. I’m sure if enough money was thrown at the driving we wouldn’t see the sort of problems we had yesterday....but someone, somewhere has made a decision (cost v benefit).....
Thing is at the likes St Petes and Helsinki BA are probably chucking a handful of airframes a day into the hands of an experienced/practiced set of driving teams.....at LHR BA would be throwing several hundred airframe a day in the direction of teams who see proper snowfall once or twice a winter, if that. I’m sure if enough money was thrown at the driving we wouldn’t see the sort of problems we had yesterday....but someone, somewhere has made a decision (cost v benefit).....
Just because snowfall or icing at Heathrow is less common does not mean at all that the teams should be less competent. And I get the impression that, once again, it was not the actual handling of the situation itself but the general business support. De-icing fluid run out because procurement have run their stocks stupidly low. Employees coming in but unable to get into their workplace because the car park has not been snow cleared. Snow forecast accurately (it was) in advance, but nobody would call in the extra resources just in case it didn't happen. And similar.
It's well known that stand provision at T5 is at a premium for the number of movements. This can actually work fine, even in adverse conditions, provided you organise an adequate number of The Troops to work with the situation. Alternatively, if you want to run with minimal staff levels, having spare space gives you some leeway. BA's problem is they do both, probably organised by disconnected departments within the business. One group schedules the stand usage up to the maximum, while on the next floor they are plotting to minimise the staff numbers available to handle this. You can see this any day, not just in bad weather. I would say that in 50% or more of my BA arrivals at T5 there is some hangup, either for stand availability or staff not in position, or queues out of the door at immigration, etc. Yet in recent years I have never experienced any of this at a BA outstation.
Theoretically Alex Cruz should be in position to reconcile these different competing targets of different areas of the business. Enough said .....
Paxing All Over The World
"disconnected departments" is the right phrase, WHBM. Each department has it's own priorities and, as long as they complete them - they can tick the box. The amount of time communicating with the departments before and after them in the process? Minimal. You can see this at each step of the process as the staff need to get rid of pax as fast as possible to be able to tick the box. If there is a problem down the line for the pax? Not their problem.
I saw this start in general commerce and banking in the late 1980s as a part of the whole outsourcing and decentralising fashion idea from the USA. Over the last 30 years I have come to the conclusion that it was only done to shift blame down the line and away from the Board. For example, that major IT failure earlier this year: has anyone of the main board lost their job ...?
I saw this start in general commerce and banking in the late 1980s as a part of the whole outsourcing and decentralising fashion idea from the USA. Over the last 30 years I have come to the conclusion that it was only done to shift blame down the line and away from the Board. For example, that major IT failure earlier this year: has anyone of the main board lost their job ...?
Reminds me of a time when there were two projects going on in my employer: one to get rid of hard drives from every desktop machine because centralised storage was going to be used; one to get rid of centralised storage because all the hard drives on everybody's PCs were going to be shared. After a few months, the Head of IT noticed a conflict.
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Must reply to you WHBM.
In general you are correct, although, today, Helsinki has been having a few problems.
The main cause is that the wet snow is very heavy and difficult to clear.
There may be "more runways than LHR" but, today, the airport authority announced that they would attempt to, solely, keep one open.
Helsinki does have the advantage of space, enough to allow remote deicing for instance.
If it needs to grow, just cut down some more forest.
Sadly that does not obtain at LHR - or too many airports in the UK.
The trains are having a few problems, the line to Turku was cut earlier (may still be) - heavy snow is causing trees to fall over.
There have been many road accidents, despite winter tyres being compulsory since the beginning of the month.
As you may know, if you have driven here, the idea of giving way and allowing extra distance is an anaethema to many finnish drivers.
There are warnings of power cuts in Southern Finland - at least it is not -30 or -40, as it will be in the new year.
However, tomorrow all will be back to running smoothly in all probability as it is forecast to get warmer overnight.
I think given the constraints LHR and BA do pretty well really!!
In general you are correct, although, today, Helsinki has been having a few problems.
The main cause is that the wet snow is very heavy and difficult to clear.
There may be "more runways than LHR" but, today, the airport authority announced that they would attempt to, solely, keep one open.
Helsinki does have the advantage of space, enough to allow remote deicing for instance.
If it needs to grow, just cut down some more forest.
Sadly that does not obtain at LHR - or too many airports in the UK.
The trains are having a few problems, the line to Turku was cut earlier (may still be) - heavy snow is causing trees to fall over.
There have been many road accidents, despite winter tyres being compulsory since the beginning of the month.
As you may know, if you have driven here, the idea of giving way and allowing extra distance is an anaethema to many finnish drivers.
There are warnings of power cuts in Southern Finland - at least it is not -30 or -40, as it will be in the new year.
However, tomorrow all will be back to running smoothly in all probability as it is forecast to get warmer overnight.
I think given the constraints LHR and BA do pretty well really!!
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I think that Finncapt strikes at the core of the problem - de-icing facilities.
If you look at the way 'good' airports (OSL, HEL, MUC etc) manage winter weather, it is almost wiithout exception that they have a de-icing area, usually near the end of the departure runway so that you taxi out, get de-iced and take off with little delay. It makes for better recycling of the fluids and the operators are very proficient at their job.
Where you would construct such an area (or 3, 09R, 27L, 27R) at Heathrow?
If you look at the way 'good' airports (OSL, HEL, MUC etc) manage winter weather, it is almost wiithout exception that they have a de-icing area, usually near the end of the departure runway so that you taxi out, get de-iced and take off with little delay. It makes for better recycling of the fluids and the operators are very proficient at their job.
Where you would construct such an area (or 3, 09R, 27L, 27R) at Heathrow?