Citywing
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sure, I see your point. If there are shortcomings in Van Air's operation, I would be the first to demand their grounding. But most arguments I have read here do not relate to their operation, but to the regulatory framework they operate in (and which was not created by them, but by someone else).
My understanding is that they simply invoke the same rights, for example, bmi regional invokes to operate domestic flights in Germany or Eastern to offer domestic flights in France. I appreciate that they are an Eastern European outfit, but this certainly should be no reason to discredit them per se.
If rules for 19seaters are different from those for larger aircraft, that certainly is something to blame the regulator for - if these rules pose a risk (out of interest - I presume that Loganair operates the DHC6 under the same set of rules?).
As for misleading the public - that happens all the time with large airlines having flights operated by regional affiliates or with other airlines franchising their brand. As soon as something goes wrong, they refer the customer to the small print and insist that while all the branding says airline "A", it indeed is airline "B". It is annoying, but not something Citywing has invented.
Re the "Virtual Airline" aspect - it appears to me that this comes down to a lack of enforcement or regulation, for whatever reason, by Tynwald. The T&C explicitly state that...
...so apparently in Wales they do not get away with it.
My understanding is that they simply invoke the same rights, for example, bmi regional invokes to operate domestic flights in Germany or Eastern to offer domestic flights in France. I appreciate that they are an Eastern European outfit, but this certainly should be no reason to discredit them per se.
If rules for 19seaters are different from those for larger aircraft, that certainly is something to blame the regulator for - if these rules pose a risk (out of interest - I presume that Loganair operates the DHC6 under the same set of rules?).
As for misleading the public - that happens all the time with large airlines having flights operated by regional affiliates or with other airlines franchising their brand. As soon as something goes wrong, they refer the customer to the small print and insist that while all the branding says airline "A", it indeed is airline "B". It is annoying, but not something Citywing has invented.
Re the "Virtual Airline" aspect - it appears to me that this comes down to a lack of enforcement or regulation, for whatever reason, by Tynwald. The T&C explicitly state that...
"Please note that these Citywing Terms and Conditions of Carriage do not apply to scheduled services between Cardiff and Anglesey which are governed by the Terms and Conditions of Carriage of Van Air Europe, a.s"
Last edited by virginblue; 24th Feb 2017 at 15:58.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 617
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let's put it this way. For the IOM services Citywing sells the tickets and contracts an air carrier, for the Cardiff/Anglesey service Van Air is the carrier contracted by the Welsh Government and Van Air then contract Citywing to sell the tickets.
...so apparently in Wales they do not get away with it.
...so apparently in Wales they do not get away with it.
Last edited by runway30; 24th Feb 2017 at 15:52. Reason: To make better sense
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting point, by the way. As they are also selling tickets in England and Scotland for their departure airports there, one has to wonder why the rules are different just for Wales. I suppose that for EU wide PSO-tenders, only airlines can apply which rules Citywing out as the holder of the PSO contract.
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: South Wales
Posts: 463
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let's put it this way. For the IOM services Citywing sells the tickets and contracts an air carrier, for the Cardiff/Anglesey service Van Air is the carrier contracted by the Welsh Government and Van Air then contract Citywing to sell the tickets.
...so apparently in Wales they do not get away with it.
...so apparently in Wales they do not get away with it.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 617
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
virginblue, you are correct, it is the PSO contract that makes the difference. For their other routes in the U.K. unfortunately they can still operate as a virtual airline.
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Siargao Island
Posts: 1,043
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To divert back to their departure airport (IOM) where the wind was 42kts gusting 56kts 40 degrees off a wet runway I dread to imagine what the wind was like at their destination airport that caused them to divert back and what the **** were they thinking of even flying in such weather conditions!
Somewhat amusing that IOM needed to declare the runway closed after they landed ... You mean there were other idiots flying in this weather?
Somewhat amusing that IOM needed to declare the runway closed after they landed ... You mean there were other idiots flying in this weather?
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NI
Posts: 1,033
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
L410 OK-UBA did the run down from Glasgow this afternoon. https://www.flightradar24.com/data/a.../okuba#c8f0a30 No movement of OK-LAZ though.
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Siargao Island
Posts: 1,043
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The issue with this operation is whether the crews come under pressure from the ticket seller to fly when they shouldn't.
Often it will be from the commercial department, after all their primary concern is to sell flights with bums on seats, and often they don't like to hear of operational problems such as a kaput weather radar and en-route thunderstorms and the fact that the commercial department, in this instance, may be merely a ticket seller doesn't change that it is commercial putting pressure upon the crew and particularly with regards to exercising commander's discretion.
That said, and particularly in this day and age whereas an increased degree of commercial decision making has been placed upon the aircraft commander, in lieu of professional trained and qualified staff in an operations/dispatch department, often commercial pressure is self inflicted by the crew member(s) when, perhaps, they may see writing on the wall whilst they need to feed their spouse and kids, pay the mortgage etc.
The point here is not to blame it upon a paper airline scenario, commercial pressure is commonplace and if it does exist in Citywing then it is not unique to their style of operation.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Winchester
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Harry Wayfarers quoted 'Somewhat amusing that IOM needed to declare the runway closed after they landed ... You mean there were other idiots flying in this weather?'
The CAA issued an Immediate Stop, therefore the aircraft was not permitted to taxi to the terminal, passengers disembarked on the runway. The authorities were hardly going to leave the runway open.
The CAA issued an Immediate Stop, therefore the aircraft was not permitted to taxi to the terminal, passengers disembarked on the runway. The authorities were hardly going to leave the runway open.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: South of the Watford Gap, East of Portland
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
'The issue with this operation is whether the crews come under pressure from the ticket seller to fly when they shouldn't. '
That is the sixtyfour thousand dollar question and one would need to see the contract between Citywing and Van Air. So the question is - in the event of a diversion, who picks up the tab?
RW35 at BFS was available as was RW31 at PIK - the captain elected to return to IOM in the face of deteriorating weather (specifically wind) where he would have known that the wind was outside xwind limits for landing and taxiing limits for his aircraft.
That is the sixtyfour thousand dollar question and one would need to see the contract between Citywing and Van Air. So the question is - in the event of a diversion, who picks up the tab?
RW35 at BFS was available as was RW31 at PIK - the captain elected to return to IOM in the face of deteriorating weather (specifically wind) where he would have known that the wind was outside xwind limits for landing and taxiing limits for his aircraft.
one would need to see the contract between Citywing and Van Air. So the question is - in the event of a diversion, who picks up the tab?
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Siargao Island
Posts: 1,043
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RW35 at BFS was available as was RW31 at PIK - the captain elected to return to IOM in the face of deteriorating weather (specifically wind) where he would have known that the wind was outside xwind limits for landing and taxiing limits for his aircraft.
One might speculate that the crew may have been going out of hours thus couldn't remain on duty if diverting away from a crew base, I worked for one operator where, quite literally, putting crew in (other than scheduled) hotel accommodation was a "no, no", perhaps the crew wanted to be at home rather than stuck away somewhere but the one point that interests me ... Why did they ever depart IOM in the first instance?
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: earth
Posts: 951
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Van Air still grounded:
25 February 2017
FLIGHTS UPDATES FOR 26 FEBRUARY 2017 ONWARDS update 25/02/17 14:30
Citywing are now able to confirm flights details for Sunday 26 February and Monday 27 February.
Sunday 26 February.
Sunday 26 February - Belfast
For Belfast there will be a Stansted-based Titan Airways Boeing 737 to operate one flight for all Sunday’s Belfast-bound passengers, departing the Isle of Man at 1450, arriving in Belfast at 1520. This aircraft is planned to depart Belfast at 1550 and will be for all Isle of Man-bound passengers, arriving at 1620. All passengers affected will be transferred onto these flights and Citywing will endeavour to contact all passengers.
Sunday 26 February - Glasgow / Newcastle
The Titan Airways aircraft will also operate a combined flight for the Isle of Man passengers booked to fly to Glasgow and Newcastle, which will route via both airports. The flight is planned to depart the Isle of Man at 1700, arriving in Glasgow at 1745. It will then depart Glasgow at 1825, arriving Newcastle at 1905. It will depart from Newcastle at 1940, arriving in the Isle of Man at 2015.
Sunday 26 February - Gloucester
Unfortunately there are no options for a Gloucester flight, instead, Isle of Man passengers will be transferred to a flight to Cardiff operated by North Flying, departing the Isle of Man at 1820 arriving at 1915. There will be road transport available to Gloucester. For the Gloucester to Isle of Man passengers unfortunately we will not have any options on Sunday but can offer the alternative of flying from Liverpool to the Isle of Man on Monday.
Sunday 26 February – Blackpool
Blackpool flights will be according to schedule and will be operated by North Flying.
Monday 27 February
Monday 27 February - Belfast
For Belfast there will be a Stansted-based Titan Airways Boeing 737 to operate one flight for all Monday’s Belfast-bound passengers, departing the Isle of Man at 1110, arriving in Belfast at 1140. This aircraft is planned to depart Belfast at 1220 and will be for all Isle of Man-bound passengers, arriving at 1250. All passengers will be transferred onto these flights and Citywing will endeavour to contact all passengers.
Monday 27 February – Blackpool / Glasgow / Gloucester
Unfortunately there are fewer aircraft options for Monday so we have had to work out a way to accommodate passengers travelling to and from the Isle of Man as best as possible. With this in mind we have planned one flight from the Isle of Man to Liverpool using the Titan Airways Boeing 737 aircraft. This flight is for all Blackpool, Glasgow and Gloucester passengers and is planned to depart the Isle of Man at 1330, arriving in Liverpool at 1410. Surface transport to the various destinations will be arranged. For all passengers from Blackpool, Glasgow and Gloucester, surface transport will be arranged to Liverpool to catch the flight to the Isle of Man which is scheduled to depart at 1450, arriving in the Isle of Man at 1530.
25 February 2017
FLIGHTS UPDATES FOR 26 FEBRUARY 2017 ONWARDS update 25/02/17 14:30
Citywing are now able to confirm flights details for Sunday 26 February and Monday 27 February.
Sunday 26 February.
Sunday 26 February - Belfast
For Belfast there will be a Stansted-based Titan Airways Boeing 737 to operate one flight for all Sunday’s Belfast-bound passengers, departing the Isle of Man at 1450, arriving in Belfast at 1520. This aircraft is planned to depart Belfast at 1550 and will be for all Isle of Man-bound passengers, arriving at 1620. All passengers affected will be transferred onto these flights and Citywing will endeavour to contact all passengers.
Sunday 26 February - Glasgow / Newcastle
The Titan Airways aircraft will also operate a combined flight for the Isle of Man passengers booked to fly to Glasgow and Newcastle, which will route via both airports. The flight is planned to depart the Isle of Man at 1700, arriving in Glasgow at 1745. It will then depart Glasgow at 1825, arriving Newcastle at 1905. It will depart from Newcastle at 1940, arriving in the Isle of Man at 2015.
Sunday 26 February - Gloucester
Unfortunately there are no options for a Gloucester flight, instead, Isle of Man passengers will be transferred to a flight to Cardiff operated by North Flying, departing the Isle of Man at 1820 arriving at 1915. There will be road transport available to Gloucester. For the Gloucester to Isle of Man passengers unfortunately we will not have any options on Sunday but can offer the alternative of flying from Liverpool to the Isle of Man on Monday.
Sunday 26 February – Blackpool
Blackpool flights will be according to schedule and will be operated by North Flying.
Monday 27 February
Monday 27 February - Belfast
For Belfast there will be a Stansted-based Titan Airways Boeing 737 to operate one flight for all Monday’s Belfast-bound passengers, departing the Isle of Man at 1110, arriving in Belfast at 1140. This aircraft is planned to depart Belfast at 1220 and will be for all Isle of Man-bound passengers, arriving at 1250. All passengers will be transferred onto these flights and Citywing will endeavour to contact all passengers.
Monday 27 February – Blackpool / Glasgow / Gloucester
Unfortunately there are fewer aircraft options for Monday so we have had to work out a way to accommodate passengers travelling to and from the Isle of Man as best as possible. With this in mind we have planned one flight from the Isle of Man to Liverpool using the Titan Airways Boeing 737 aircraft. This flight is for all Blackpool, Glasgow and Gloucester passengers and is planned to depart the Isle of Man at 1330, arriving in Liverpool at 1410. Surface transport to the various destinations will be arranged. For all passengers from Blackpool, Glasgow and Gloucester, surface transport will be arranged to Liverpool to catch the flight to the Isle of Man which is scheduled to depart at 1450, arriving in the Isle of Man at 1530.
So loganair operating 37 years old dash 6 on the beach in scotland is ok but l410 is not just because of.. ??
2011 metro crash in southern ireland had nothing to do with vanair.
2011 metro crash in southern ireland had nothing to do with vanair.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 696
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think anyone ever suggested there was a problem with the aircraft, rather a problem with the operator? I feel suspicious of the reaction though. If a Ryanair pilot did something stupid would they have grounded Ryanair? Of course they wouldn't have...
If things don't go Van Air's way I wonder who the new operator will be? There's not a huge number of options. Transaviabaltika? (Suggested only half in jest...)
If things don't go Van Air's way I wonder who the new operator will be? There's not a huge number of options. Transaviabaltika? (Suggested only half in jest...)
Last edited by 01475; 25th Feb 2017 at 23:24.
