BIRMINGHAM - 6

[Ian Brooks]

I think MAN is getting very close to needing the 4th flight so i could see
them adding another B777 flight which would sort the cargo problem
for a while.

[nigel osborne]

ATNOTTS.

Hi Andrew yes see where your coming from and agree with most.

Is a bit odd all round re Emirates.Yes they now have a 77F into LHR to cover for loss of freight after going all A380.

Yet at LGW its now two A380s a day and EK have apparently said they would like a 3rd 380 in there.Manchester up to 2.

Yet their freighters are fully committed around the World and not sure they have that many more on order.

Perhaps the plan could be to put the freight on 3rd party carriers ,although there seems to be a trend away from that sort of freight and into belly cargo more,which the A380 doesn't have much spare.

[groundhogbhx]

Manchester has been roading cargo to BHX for years, maybe the 2nd A380 is part of the reason for the 3rd 777 at BHX. The A380 is planned at 5 tonnes of cargo per flight and the 777 up to 25 tonnes, depending on passenger load. Why does it depend on passenger load, because baggage loading policy can have a bearing on how many baggage bins are used thus reducing available cargo space.

To answer a previous comment, some cargo does have time constraints on it so if it doesn't travel there can be costs to the airline. This can result in a light pallet or bin traveling, as it is high priority, and a much heavier one waiting for the next flight even though the aircraft still has an underload.

Just glad I don't have to get involved with that juggling act anymore!

[ATNotts]

Goundhogbhx

Manchester has been roading cargo to BHX for years, maybe the 2nd A380 is part of the reason for the 3rd 777 at BHX

I thought the same about the third daily BHX. It may provide a short term fix

To answer a previous comment, some cargo does have time constraints on it so if it doesn't travel there can be costs to the airline. This can result in a light pallet or bin traveling, as it is high priority, and a much heavier one waiting for the next flight even though the aircraft still has an underload.

Just glad I don't have to get involved with that juggling act anymore!

Used to be involved in cargo (most European road) myself and can't say I disagree with the sentiments in your final sentence.

Incidentally, I've noticed the BHX cargo stats published for 2014 seem to way under declare tonnages, both on belly hold and full aircraft charters. See this link

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport...ation_2014.pdf

Tables shows no cargo carried on all cargo aircraft in 2014 at all - which is rubbish, given the daily FedEx 75F and the frequency of cargo charters; and the total throughput on passenger aircraft is well short of what Emirates claim (13,000 tonnes) for 2014.

[groundhogbhx]

There is something seriously wrong with those cargo figures, in the days I used to do the EK it would move around 1,000 tonnes a month which is less then 10 tonnes per movement.

[JennyB]

The cargo figures could be right.

Remember the airport was closed at night for about 6 months of 2014, which is when the majority of ad-hoc cargo work is.

Pretty much devastated that side of business.

Though obviously not down to zero!

[ATNotts]

I very much doubt that - not the night closure, that was a fact, but during the summer the airport was H24 for the most part, and you only have to look back through BHX movement records to find the FedEx continued to operate nightly, and numerous AN12 and AN26 movements amongst others, presumably carrying at least 1kg each have operated - so the all cargo number cannot possible be correct (0 tonnes for the whole of the year!).

Surely businesses like Blue City couldn't have survived without handling a single freighter during the whole of 2014.

[JennyB]

Of course businesses like Blue City couldn't operate with no freighters, which is why I said obviously not down to zero!

However for ad-hoc cargo business, mostly at night, peak business being October - April, being closed at night for most of that time a big loss, indeed know that businesses like Blue City nearly didn't survive during that time.

Think there were around 170 ad-hoc cargo movements in October 2013 before the closures, by March 2014 it was down to around 10.

[groundhogbhx]

Probably because Easter was in March last year. Most ad-hoc charters are lean manufacturing deliveries, so the run up to easter would mean a major decrease in demand as they get ready for the shutdown. I also seem to remember that most of those flights are daytime and would be unaffected by the closures.

[ATNotts]

You're right regarding the ad-hocs, most do / did operate during the daytime, or early evening. And of course the FedEx nightly operation was just pushed back to arrive immediately after the runway reopened each day.

It's a shame the airport doesn't take the same pride in the cargo business as it does in passenger numbers. I would have thought they would have been mandated by the CAA to provide (accurate) figures for both pax and cargo.

[nigel osborne]

All,

Birmingham had nearly 3 years of night closures ,firstly for the new runway extension taxiway and then diverted A45 loop.

Then it restarted for resurfacing of the existing runway. Due to the very wet past 2 winters the work over ran by more than 6 months.

However from last winter and until the closures ended end of March 15, the closure hours were far less.ie 23.00- 3.30 23.00 -2.30am etc and some of the freight flights like the Fed Ex were retimed where possible.

However many of the ad hoc freighters which make up the majority of BHX pure freight flights arrived before 11pm so not as much night disruption as you might think.

Nigel

[JennyB]

However many of the ad hoc freighters which make up the majority of BHX pure freight flights arrived before 11pm so not as much night disruption as you might think.

Not being funny here, but with the airport being closed at 2300, do you think that may explain why most freighters were in before 2300?

Of course only the few that could get in before then of course, most operated to EMA,SEN,CVT,DSA and LPL, all flights that previously would have operated through BHX.

Many flights operated to those airports even during the times that BHX was open, because the nature of ad-hoc work meant that they could never be guaranteed to arrive before closure, and arrangements for handling/trucking/customs/screening(for outbounds), etc would have to be made beforehand, not at 2305 when the aircraft is turned away from BHX.

[ATNotts]

JennyB

Not being funny here, but with the airport being closed at 2300, do you think that may explain why most freighters were in before 2300?

Of course only the few that could get in before then of course, most operated to EMA,SEN,CVT,DSA and LPL, all flights that previously would have operated through BHX.

Many flights operated to those airports even during the times that BHX was open, because the nature of ad-hoc work meant that they could never be guaranteed to arrive before closure, and arrangements for handling/trucking/customs/screening(for outbounds), etc would have to be made beforehand, not at 2305 when the aircraft is turned away from BHX.

I'm not quite sure if we're talking about the same "Birmingham" Most of the ad hoc (largely motor industry related) freight operations take place during the day / early evening, and yes, a few flight clearly will have been victims of the seemingly interminable night closures, many flights (and I mean more than a handful per week) did operate to / from BHX. Clearly they aren't regular, as line stops on certain components lead to spikes in movements, but really, the night closures won't account for the incorrect cargo figures that are published by the CAA.

Leaving aside the irritating, but necessary night closures, for much of the year (2014) the airport was H24 and ad hoc cargo operated as normal - whatever normal is for ad hocs!

Are you suggesting perhaps that the CAA numbers are correct?

[nigel osborne]

JennyB.

Re your << "Not being funny here, but with the airport being closed at 2300, do you think that may explain why most freighters were in before 2300? ">>

Made me smile, although perhaps I should have clarified...


Most ad hoc freight flights come into BHX before 23.00 anyway so the night closures didn't have a massive effect on them anyway

BHX has one of the strictest noise abatement policies anywhere in the UK, due to closeness of housing and night movement are restricted and capped.

Thats probably the main reason why our freight flights mostly operate in the day.


Nigel

[JennyB]

Originally Posted by nigel osborne

JennyB.

Re your << "Not being funny here, but with the airport being closed at 2300, do you think that may explain why most freighters were in before 2300? ">>

Made me smile, although perhaps I should have clarified...


Most ad hoc freight flights come into BHX before 23.00 anyway so the night closures didn't have a massive effect on them anyway

BHX has one of the strictest noise abatement policies anywhere in the UK, due to closeness of housing and night movement are restricted and capped.

Thats probably the main reason why our freight flights mostly operate in the day.


Nigel

Most seem to be under the impression here that cargo flights are mostly in the daytime, totally wrong, would say around 25% daytime, 75% at night.

Many cargo aircraft may position during the day, but the vast majority of live sectors are night-time, and has always been the case for cargo, either ad-hoc, or scheduled.

[JennyB]

Originally Posted by ATNotts

JennyB



I'm not quite sure if we're talking about the same "Birmingham" Most of the ad hoc (largely motor industry related) freight operations take place during the day / early evening, and yes, a few flight clearly will have been victims of the seemingly interminable night closures, many flights (and I mean more than a handful per week) did operate to / from BHX. Clearly they aren't regular, as line stops on certain components lead to spikes in movements, but really, the night closures won't account for the incorrect cargo figures that are published by the CAA.

Leaving aside the irritating, but necessary night closures, for much of the year (2014) the airport was H24 and ad hoc cargo operated as normal - whatever normal is for ad hocs!

Are you suggesting perhaps that the CAA numbers are correct?

Said in my first post that obviously the figures are wrong, however they will be much reduced from full year figures as, despite your protestation, the majority of cargo flights operate at night.

Wouldn't say that over 12 months of closures over 18 months were necessary, when planned to be around 4 months originally.

Some poor planning from either the BHX side, the contractors side, or both there.

The weather excuse really doesn't wash, the last two Winters been the best for years, and don't recall any snow, or one night when the planned closures didn't go ahead, in fact, generally started early, and often opened late.

" But, there was rain" some apologists cry, well, it was Winter! Actually also Autumn and Spring in the end, and as I said, not one night did they have to abandon the works, when surely planning a huge project like this they would have allowed a certain amount of lost days during inclement weather.

A huge balls up basically.

[ATNotts]

JennyB

See your PMs

[jon01]

Thomson S16

Looking at the new brochures:

It looks like seven aircraft based most days plus a few Monarch's, Air Malta on Tuesday and Thomas Cook to Djerba. One of the based aircraft appears to be another airline, possibly Germania?

New flights:
Sardinia is on a Saturday morning
Skiathos is up to twice weekly with flights on Tue and Fri
Split is on a Friday
Agadir is Monday evening
Izmir is Saturday pm from May 28th

Long Haul:
Thu - Orlando Sanford
Fri - Cancun
Sat - Punta Cana
Sun - Montego Bay
Mon - Cancun

[adfly]

It still amazes me that an airport the size of BHX only has 1 flight per week to Orlando, even being squeezed on each side by MAN/LGW you would think TOM could fill 2 or 3 weekly flights.

[Guest 112233]

Re the runway lighting and resurfacing and strengthing work

Has this project now been completed ?

There was an interesting discussion on the Edinburgh Airport thread a few weeks back; that informed the non techies like me, about limiting factors for long haul operations and Pavement Classification Number (PCN) was an important one, possibly a more limiting factor before declared length.

In association with Aircraft Classification number (ACN), a function of aircraft mass and gear configuration.

The aprons and taxiways were constructed when the new terminals were built, but the runway may date back to the mid sixties and earlier.

I have looked at the AIP web site and I have wondered if the PCN for the lengthened runway will change ? I realize that other factors apply, like the flexibility of the pavement and characteristics of the runway sub-straight.

[Edit:I'm not including the drainage work around the Alpha loop at the 15 end, that may be completely separate issue.]

Will the flattened out re surfaced runway be capable of handling heavier aircraft ?

CAT III