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PEK
Great news and well done to the BHX team, lets hope it leads to something more permanent in the future, even if it's just a longer season of charters next year. Despite a host of new long haul routes launching in 2014, feathers are very much ruffled on the MAN thread too.....for once BHX manages to beat MAN to it!
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Very good news for BHX; it has just been on Midlands Today and it does appear that this is testing the waters for something more permanent in the future. Really interesting development; I must admit I thought MAN would get a link first but I can't understand why the MAN people are getting their knickers in a twist over a few summer charters!
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Wait a minute. This doesn't stand up to any scrutiny at all.
1. Since when has a charter flight been a pre-cursor to a scheduled flight?
2. Chartered by a local WM travel agent - why didn't they charter a Thomson plane or a Titan / Hi-Fly or what ever plane?
3. CZ are not taking any risk on these flights - they are paid to fly them by the charterer. It's a world of difference to go from no-risk to full risk as they would have to if it was a scheduled flight. How can it be a 'toe in the water'?
4. Over on the Liverpool thread, Iberia are operating a series of charters over the summer. Are they too putting a toe in the water as a pre-cursor to a scheduled route? I don't see anyone on that thread trying to make that non-sequitur.
I sniff a publicity stunt by the airport here: 'look - we promised you flights to here there and everywhere when the runway extension was open'.
Get a local travel agent to do the donkey work / they get the photo opportunity / publicity / everyone thinks the millions were well spent / the flights come....and go. Quietly.
Good for the spotters as well.
1. Since when has a charter flight been a pre-cursor to a scheduled flight?
2. Chartered by a local WM travel agent - why didn't they charter a Thomson plane or a Titan / Hi-Fly or what ever plane?
3. CZ are not taking any risk on these flights - they are paid to fly them by the charterer. It's a world of difference to go from no-risk to full risk as they would have to if it was a scheduled flight. How can it be a 'toe in the water'?
4. Over on the Liverpool thread, Iberia are operating a series of charters over the summer. Are they too putting a toe in the water as a pre-cursor to a scheduled route? I don't see anyone on that thread trying to make that non-sequitur.
I sniff a publicity stunt by the airport here: 'look - we promised you flights to here there and everywhere when the runway extension was open'.
Get a local travel agent to do the donkey work / they get the photo opportunity / publicity / everyone thinks the millions were well spent / the flights come....and go. Quietly.
Good for the spotters as well.
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China Southern
I am sure that regulars on this forum are aware that no scheduled service has been confirmed and that any new services are subject to the necessary regulatory agreements between China and the UK.
However some of the comments made on both this and the MAN threads smack of jealousy.
Remember some of the comments made about Air India.This has proved to be a successful service and proves that there is demand from BHX for certain long-haul services as there is from other UK airports.
We will have to see if these flights are successful,but if they are why can't they be a pre-cursor something more regular be it charter or scheduled,seasonal or year-round.
For what it is worth my thought is any service may work if it operates BHX-PEK-CAN.Obviously you get the best of both worlds.Tourist traffic into the main Chinese city as well any business needs,plus Guangzhou if memory serves is one of the main motor industry centres as well as the main CZ base.Lots of bases covered,for the UK and Chinese going in both directions.
It has taken 3 years of planning and negotiating to bring these flights to BHX and both the needs of business and tourism have been considered.Let's give the people who are responsible for delivering this opportunity some credit and hope that something more permanent comes from it.
However some of the comments made on both this and the MAN threads smack of jealousy.
Remember some of the comments made about Air India.This has proved to be a successful service and proves that there is demand from BHX for certain long-haul services as there is from other UK airports.
We will have to see if these flights are successful,but if they are why can't they be a pre-cursor something more regular be it charter or scheduled,seasonal or year-round.
For what it is worth my thought is any service may work if it operates BHX-PEK-CAN.Obviously you get the best of both worlds.Tourist traffic into the main Chinese city as well any business needs,plus Guangzhou if memory serves is one of the main motor industry centres as well as the main CZ base.Lots of bases covered,for the UK and Chinese going in both directions.
It has taken 3 years of planning and negotiating to bring these flights to BHX and both the needs of business and tourism have been considered.Let's give the people who are responsible for delivering this opportunity some credit and hope that something more permanent comes from it.
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Wait a minute. This doesn't stand up to any scrutiny at all.
1. Since when has a charter flight been a pre-cursor to a scheduled flight?
2. Chartered by a local WM travel agent - why didn't they charter a Thomson plane or a Titan / Hi-Fly or what ever plane?
3. CZ are not taking any risk on these flights - they are paid to fly them by the charterer. It's a world of difference to go from no-risk to full risk as they would have to if it was a scheduled flight. How can it be a 'toe in the water'?
4. Over on the Liverpool thread, Iberia are operating a series of charters over the summer. Are they too putting a toe in the water as a pre-cursor to a scheduled route? I don't see anyone on that thread trying to make that non-sequitur.
I sniff a publicity stunt by the airport here: 'look - we promised you flights to here there and everywhere when the runway extension was open'.
Get a local travel agent to do the donkey work / they get the photo opportunity / publicity / everyone thinks the millions were well spent / the flights come....and go. Quietly.
Good for the spotters as well.
1. Since when has a charter flight been a pre-cursor to a scheduled flight?
2. Chartered by a local WM travel agent - why didn't they charter a Thomson plane or a Titan / Hi-Fly or what ever plane?
3. CZ are not taking any risk on these flights - they are paid to fly them by the charterer. It's a world of difference to go from no-risk to full risk as they would have to if it was a scheduled flight. How can it be a 'toe in the water'?
4. Over on the Liverpool thread, Iberia are operating a series of charters over the summer. Are they too putting a toe in the water as a pre-cursor to a scheduled route? I don't see anyone on that thread trying to make that non-sequitur.
I sniff a publicity stunt by the airport here: 'look - we promised you flights to here there and everywhere when the runway extension was open'.
Get a local travel agent to do the donkey work / they get the photo opportunity / publicity / everyone thinks the millions were well spent / the flights come....and go. Quietly.
Good for the spotters as well.
Oh and just another its not even the first regular regional charter service from the UK to China - that goes to Airtours Group when they operated series of Manchester - Sanya flights and holidays some years ago !
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As rutankrd quite rightly has stated these aren't even the first charter flights from the regions. EMA also had Sanya flights with Airtours back in the early 2000's. Typical airport PR.
I assume the fact that the flights are in the school holidays, they are going to be going for a premium?
I assume the fact that the flights are in the school holidays, they are going to be going for a premium?
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All names taken,
You make some extremely bold comments about the China Southern flights and am puzzled why you would wish to rubbish any such service.
Any airport that can pull off such a deal should be praised not receive such criticism.
The reality is that there are no sched flight slots left between China and the UK which is why the Transport Minister and his counterpart in China have met and are to meet again soon to try and thrash out more flights.
A way round this to to try and offer charter flights as their are no such restrictions. This is what is being tried here.
This is not a local publicity stunt as you claim..The announcement was made by the the Secretary of State for culture.
Why would they want to get involved in a local airport advertising campaign..its being seen as an important step in getting more Chinese to visit the UK.
It is not just a local travel agent involved, but tourist companies in China and China Southern Airlines and taken 3 years to broker
Yes its only 3 flights, but its taken 3 years of negotiations.
I certainly hope they come back next year with an expanded programme..if they do you might have some hat eating to do, as skeptics on here have already had to do re BHX Air India service
Nigel
You make some extremely bold comments about the China Southern flights and am puzzled why you would wish to rubbish any such service.
Any airport that can pull off such a deal should be praised not receive such criticism.
The reality is that there are no sched flight slots left between China and the UK which is why the Transport Minister and his counterpart in China have met and are to meet again soon to try and thrash out more flights.
A way round this to to try and offer charter flights as their are no such restrictions. This is what is being tried here.
This is not a local publicity stunt as you claim..The announcement was made by the the Secretary of State for culture.
Why would they want to get involved in a local airport advertising campaign..its being seen as an important step in getting more Chinese to visit the UK.
It is not just a local travel agent involved, but tourist companies in China and China Southern Airlines and taken 3 years to broker
Yes its only 3 flights, but its taken 3 years of negotiations.
I certainly hope they come back next year with an expanded programme..if they do you might have some hat eating to do, as skeptics on here have already had to do re BHX Air India service
Nigel
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Nigel
No offence to anyone intended and I apologise for the tone if it came across like that. I too hope the flights are back next year
It's a good piece of work from those involved. I'm just trying to put the thing into perspective and maybe offering a bit of a reality check. I hope that's one of the positive things about this forum rather than city bashing (since I don't live in or near a city and have nothing to bash or bash with
)
But you, yourself note that these flights were jointly announced by the Secretary of State for Culture (note: not Transport).
Charter flights from all corners of the world hit Britain's regional airports from time to time. It really is a non sequitur to assume that they are a fore-runner of a scheduled service.
The key difference between charter and scheduled is in who takes the risk.
In the case of a charter flight, the person who organizes the charter is almost always taking the risks although they will try to lay that risk off the best they can.
With a scheduled service, the airline takes the risk, albeit with sweeteners from airports to the extent they are allowed to offer them. There is a huge difference between the two.
CZ, the airline won't give a hoot whether they carry 2 passengers or a full load on these flights; they get paid for the charters come what may.
But good luck to those involved.
No offence to anyone intended and I apologise for the tone if it came across like that. I too hope the flights are back next year
It's a good piece of work from those involved. I'm just trying to put the thing into perspective and maybe offering a bit of a reality check. I hope that's one of the positive things about this forum rather than city bashing (since I don't live in or near a city and have nothing to bash or bash with
)But you, yourself note that these flights were jointly announced by the Secretary of State for Culture (note: not Transport).
Charter flights from all corners of the world hit Britain's regional airports from time to time. It really is a non sequitur to assume that they are a fore-runner of a scheduled service.
The key difference between charter and scheduled is in who takes the risk.
In the case of a charter flight, the person who organizes the charter is almost always taking the risks although they will try to lay that risk off the best they can.
With a scheduled service, the airline takes the risk, albeit with sweeteners from airports to the extent they are allowed to offer them. There is a huge difference between the two.
CZ, the airline won't give a hoot whether they carry 2 passengers or a full load on these flights; they get paid for the charters come what may.
But good luck to those involved.
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The announcement was made by the the Secretary of State for culture.
Why would they want to get involved in a local airport advertising campaign..its being seen as an important step in getting more Chinese to visit the UK.
It is not just a local travel agent involved, but tourist companies in China and China Southern Airlines and taken 3 years to broker
Yes its only 3 flights, but its taken 3 years of negotiations.
I certainly hope they come back next year with an expanded programme..if they do you might have some hat eating to do, as skeptics on here have already had to do re BHX Air India service
Why would they want to get involved in a local airport advertising campaign..its being seen as an important step in getting more Chinese to visit the UK.
It is not just a local travel agent involved, but tourist companies in China and China Southern Airlines and taken 3 years to broker
Yes its only 3 flights, but its taken 3 years of negotiations.
I certainly hope they come back next year with an expanded programme..if they do you might have some hat eating to do, as skeptics on here have already had to do re BHX Air India service
There are many of these cultural charter programmes each year such as those from Italy operated by xxxx on behalf of Alitalia each year.
Yes good on those in the Midlands for achieving this.
As for a return in 2015 well I fully expect their to be an announcement of regional scheduled slots come autumn .
And that Edinburgh/Manchester and Birmingham will be chasing these very hard.
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I certainly hope they come back next year with an expanded programme..if they do you might have some hat eating to do, as skeptics on here have already had to do re BHX Air India service
Surprisingly, the hat tasted good, sort of chocolaty......
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I sniff a publicity stunt by the airport here: 'look - we promised you flights to here there and everywhere when the runway extension was open'.
Get a local travel agent to do the donkey work / they get the photo opportunity / publicity / everyone thinks the millions were well spent / the flights come....and go. Quietly.
Must confess the more you think about it the more this may be a correct observation.......
Manchester has way more tourist spots in its catchment !
Chester, N Wales Castles , Beatrix Potter and indeed Liverpool for The Beatles Tours are actually more popular, not just for Chinese but for Japanese and what of the Man Utd museum.....You could fill 30 charters alone !
Last time I was up there 3 coachloads turned up in an hour 180 pax ......there publicity material is actually in a number of languages including Japanese such is the volume !
The point is the bilaterial may be altered as civil servants "might" be sucked in by an artificial promise !
A coup by BHX and an almighty miss by MAN !
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Bagso
Eh, I think that you have missed out Stratford-upon-Avon!
I live nearby and, especially in Summer, it is wall-to-wall
tourists spending their dollars, euros, whatever.
I am often amazed at the numbers in winter.
Now, if only we could convince them to use BHX instead of
travelling up from London. Somehow, I think that BHX
management has their work cut out on that score.
Eh, I think that you have missed out Stratford-upon-Avon!
I live nearby and, especially in Summer, it is wall-to-wall
tourists spending their dollars, euros, whatever.
I am often amazed at the numbers in winter.
Now, if only we could convince them to use BHX instead of
travelling up from London. Somehow, I think that BHX
management has their work cut out on that score.
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Lets not start any MAN V BHX debate please, we have been told more than once by the mods .....
... and besides , I'm sure we, and those north of us , would agree that it is refreshing that a region has been chosen and not L****n !!
... and besides , I'm sure we, and those north of us , would agree that it is refreshing that a region has been chosen and not L****n !!
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And the *majority* if they're coming all the way from
China on a once in a lifetime trip will do London as well as anywhere else listed above, which is why all existing connectivity is at LHR (and LGW).
Also tourism is all well and good but unless you can have the front end filled with people paying real money, forget it.
Tourism does well for the wider economy but with margins already poor in the airline business, it's not enough to get a route up and running.
Soooooooo,what is the current position regarding UK-China? If more flights are permitted, what's to suggest they'll be regional? Genuine question.
China on a once in a lifetime trip will do London as well as anywhere else listed above, which is why all existing connectivity is at LHR (and LGW).
Also tourism is all well and good but unless you can have the front end filled with people paying real money, forget it.
Tourism does well for the wider economy but with margins already poor in the airline business, it's not enough to get a route up and running.
Soooooooo,what is the current position regarding UK-China? If more flights are permitted, what's to suggest they'll be regional? Genuine question.
Last edited by Skipness One Echo; 17th Mar 2014 at 21:32.
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February pax
insuindi
Thank you for the February figures, I must admit I was quite surprised at the size of the increase considering the number of seats flybe took out the market.
Monarch did fly more in early February this year than last but still a very healthy figure in total. Take out the 29 day February dates and it compares well to recent years and and even beats the last leap year by 45000.
Emirates was up 11% and back at 90% load factor, Air India 82%, Islamabad was also up and the only major disappointment was United due to going 5 a week for one month.
Business routes were pretty good with Dussledorf up 22% (20 more sectors though), Brussels 23%, Copenhagen 18% (just two more sectors), Frankfurt 7% (similar number of flights), Paris +7%, Stuttgart +85% (same number of flights), Dublin 18% (significant increase in flights).
Domestics were quite good with Aberdeen up 22%, flybe retaking easyjet on the Belfast (BE only 7% down from 30 sectors less and smaller aircraft) and both airlines exceeded 80% load factor. EDI was down 1% but surprisingly on more flights than 2013 but less seats due to more Q400's flying.
Pete
Thank you for the February figures, I must admit I was quite surprised at the size of the increase considering the number of seats flybe took out the market.
Monarch did fly more in early February this year than last but still a very healthy figure in total. Take out the 29 day February dates and it compares well to recent years and and even beats the last leap year by 45000.
Emirates was up 11% and back at 90% load factor, Air India 82%, Islamabad was also up and the only major disappointment was United due to going 5 a week for one month.
Business routes were pretty good with Dussledorf up 22% (20 more sectors though), Brussels 23%, Copenhagen 18% (just two more sectors), Frankfurt 7% (similar number of flights), Paris +7%, Stuttgart +85% (same number of flights), Dublin 18% (significant increase in flights).
Domestics were quite good with Aberdeen up 22%, flybe retaking easyjet on the Belfast (BE only 7% down from 30 sectors less and smaller aircraft) and both airlines exceeded 80% load factor. EDI was down 1% but surprisingly on more flights than 2013 but less seats due to more Q400's flying.
Pete