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Stobart still seem to have plenty of money to splash around, despite low profits at SEN:
in-cumbria | Home | Carlisle Airport plans take off again
Note the mention of an ultimate aim of 2 million pax per year at SEN, rather than the 5 million mentioned earlier..........
in-cumbria | Home | Carlisle Airport plans take off again
Note the mention of an ultimate aim of 2 million pax per year at SEN, rather than the 5 million mentioned earlier..........
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Carlisle to Southend route
If Stobart Group were to overturn the decision of the Court of Appeal it might well be good news for Southend Airport. It might be worthwhile remembering how the Carlise - Southend route came about. Stobart want to build a freight distribution centre at Carlisle Airport and the local authority gave them conditional permission to do so. The condition was that they kept the airport open and maintained the runway for passenger operations. So Stobart needed some routes to fly and the rest as they say is history - Aer Arran was invested in, Carlisle - Southend and Carlisle - Dublin were the proposed routes and the planning condition was met. However a nearby farmer popped up and opposed the planning permission. He said that these routes would not be commercially viable and that Stobart was in fact simply paying lip service to the planning condition. After a few years they could show that the airport operations were loss making and then close the airport whilst keeping the shiny new distribution centre. The Court of Appeal agreed with him - see here :http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...69411363,d.ZGU If Stobart are successful in their lastest attempt then SEN will see fee paying business arriving from Carlisle which is good news. However if the original opposition to the planning application is based in fact the route might only last a year or two before being cut. Only time will tell.
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SEN will see fee paying business arriving from Carlisle
Wouldn't it have been much easier to simply take the train from Carlisle to that London terminus?
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Phileas, if you are right then Stobart must surely also know that the train beats the 'plane everytime. The conclusion would then be that the whole Aer Arran/Carlisle Airport venture is simply a side show to get the Freight Distribution Centre up and running. Let's hope that Stobart have done their homework and that the Carlisle - Southend route surprises everyone with its success!
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Of course it is fair to assume that people who wish to travel to London will not actually live on the train station, so whether you go to the airport or the train you have to travel there, and as the airport in Carlisle is not so far away and you are as likely to be able to get to either the train or airport in Carlisle in much the same time then that part of the journey can be ignored.
A quick look at national rail reveals It takes c.4 hours to travel Carlisle to London on the train. Let's assume you have to arrive 15 mins before hand, which is reasonable.
Again, you are unlikely to be visiting Euston so whether you travel to your final destination from Euston or Liverpool Street is largely irrelevant, both have excellent links to the centre of London, and arguably Liverpool street is better from a business point of view.
So, time analysis:
Train: 4hr:15 mins from arriving at the train station to arriving at a London terminus.
Air: 30 min check in, 1 hour flight, no baggage (business travellers which seem to be the aim of the game rarely check in a bag), 15 min transfer to the train (generous at SEN) and 50 mins on the train.
Total time from airport to london terminus: 2hr35 mins
Take the 7:02 train from Carlisle arrive in London at 11:05 (or 11:34 if you take the direct train - go figure)
Take the 07:00 flight from Carlisle and arrive in Liverpool Street 09:10
I know what I'd rather do, probably cheaper to fly as well, and of course if you happen to not be going to central london but somewhere east ….
As a further point, Newcastle to London on the train takes only 3 hours and yet they support (very well) 6 daily flights with British Airways to LHR and a double daily easyJet to Gatwick.
My point is, exactly why is service CAX-SEN such a bad idea? I would say you would certainly fill 2-3 a day on a 72 seat aircraft, easily and likely with a healthy yield ...
A quick look at national rail reveals It takes c.4 hours to travel Carlisle to London on the train. Let's assume you have to arrive 15 mins before hand, which is reasonable.
Again, you are unlikely to be visiting Euston so whether you travel to your final destination from Euston or Liverpool Street is largely irrelevant, both have excellent links to the centre of London, and arguably Liverpool street is better from a business point of view.
So, time analysis:
Train: 4hr:15 mins from arriving at the train station to arriving at a London terminus.
Air: 30 min check in, 1 hour flight, no baggage (business travellers which seem to be the aim of the game rarely check in a bag), 15 min transfer to the train (generous at SEN) and 50 mins on the train.
Total time from airport to london terminus: 2hr35 mins
Take the 7:02 train from Carlisle arrive in London at 11:05 (or 11:34 if you take the direct train - go figure)
Take the 07:00 flight from Carlisle and arrive in Liverpool Street 09:10
I know what I'd rather do, probably cheaper to fly as well, and of course if you happen to not be going to central london but somewhere east ….
As a further point, Newcastle to London on the train takes only 3 hours and yet they support (very well) 6 daily flights with British Airways to LHR and a double daily easyJet to Gatwick.
My point is, exactly why is service CAX-SEN such a bad idea? I would say you would certainly fill 2-3 a day on a 72 seat aircraft, easily and likely with a healthy yield ...
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cumbrianboy,
You're faking the figures:
If check-in closes 30 minutes before then, there could be a queue, so need to be there 45 minutes before, mode of transport could get delayed, might turn up late as taxi drivers do, mad panic etc., let's book the taxi for 0530 rather than 0545 ... meanwhile for the train one might be able to walk or take a bus and arrive 5-15 minutes before the train departs.
Hand baggage only ... "But excuse me maam, I have toothpaste and deodorant both of which exceed 100ml in volume" ... "Well you'll have to check them in sir for which we're going to sting you X amount and then you're going to need to wait for you baggage in (not so near) London - Southend.
The train is there waiting for them is it? ... LOL
You're faking the figures:
Air: 30 min check in, 1 hour flight, no baggage (business travellers which seem to be the aim of the game rarely check in a bag), 15 min transfer to the train (generous at SEN) and 50 mins on the train.
Total time from airport to london terminus: 2hr35 mins
Total time from airport to london terminus: 2hr35 mins
Hand baggage only ... "But excuse me maam, I have toothpaste and deodorant both of which exceed 100ml in volume" ... "Well you'll have to check them in sir for which we're going to sting you X amount and then you're going to need to wait for you baggage in (not so near) London - Southend.
15 min transfer to the train (generous at SEN)
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Train vs 'Plane
I thinks it is pointless arguing about the respective travel times to London when expert opinion was presented in the Court of Appeal that favoured the train as the quickest mode of transport.
However Carlisle to SEN to then fly to Faro on Easyjet? That is a different proposition. Is SEN offering cheaper Easyjey flights than airports closer to Carlisle? Maybe Stobart Air are relying on providing a feeder service?
However Carlisle to SEN to then fly to Faro on Easyjet? That is a different proposition. Is SEN offering cheaper Easyjey flights than airports closer to Carlisle? Maybe Stobart Air are relying on providing a feeder service?
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Jolly interesting recent post on the Stansted thread by vctenderness regarding experience on arrival at Stansted. Seems to have taken well in excess of 2 hours from disembarking to reaching car park!!! My word - I was just comparing that with the SEN experience. Now - which is better? Hmmm!!!!
In particular - as a regular viewer of "Skytrax" reviews - Border Control at Stansted seems to be an ongoing and never-ending commented upon shambles. Perhaps one of the pro-Stansted contributors could comment? Are things really this dire? Give me SEN any day!!!
In particular - as a regular viewer of "Skytrax" reviews - Border Control at Stansted seems to be an ongoing and never-ending commented upon shambles. Perhaps one of the pro-Stansted contributors could comment? Are things really this dire? Give me SEN any day!!!
Actually it is possible to be on the station platform within 5 minutes of stepping off a domestic arrival at SEN. I know 'cos I've done it and with a train every 20 minutes maximum then 15 minutes 'plane to train' isn't unreasonable.
In comparing a Newcastle-Heathrow route against Carlisle-Southend, it's worth remembering 2 things
- Tyneside, Teesside and the associated urban and suburban area have a population over 10 times the comparable area for Carlisle
- Heathrow is one of the world's major hub airports. A ticket on BA to Heathrow will open up a vast array of connections to major cities at high frequency throughout Europe and the rest of the world. Southend is a long way from being such a hub.
- Tyneside, Teesside and the associated urban and suburban area have a population over 10 times the comparable area for Carlisle
- Heathrow is one of the world's major hub airports. A ticket on BA to Heathrow will open up a vast array of connections to major cities at high frequency throughout Europe and the rest of the world. Southend is a long way from being such a hub.
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Cumbrianboy's figures are entirely reasonable. The typical ill-informed and inflammatory garbage from the respondent.
I've got to my car, pulled out the car park and driven past McDonalds a shade over ten minutes after touchdown from a domestic flight. You can easily be on a train by that time, they are every 10 minutes at peak so 20 mins from plane to train at worst. Even arriving on an international EZY off-peak with luggage you would be very unlucky to have to spend more than 35 mins between touchdown and train .
Online check in removed the need for business travellers to queue some time ago.
Day return pax won't have toothpaste. Any regular business passenger staying longer that doesn't know the drill deserves the punishment of a bag in the hold. Not that delivery at SEN takes very long, especially from props.
The point about proximity to airport compared to rail station in Carlisle was disregarded. Of course, not everyone will live in the very centre of Carlisle anyway and though I've not been there I'm guessing early morning buses are few and far between.
I've got to my car, pulled out the car park and driven past McDonalds a shade over ten minutes after touchdown from a domestic flight. You can easily be on a train by that time, they are every 10 minutes at peak so 20 mins from plane to train at worst. Even arriving on an international EZY off-peak with luggage you would be very unlucky to have to spend more than 35 mins between touchdown and train .
Online check in removed the need for business travellers to queue some time ago.
Day return pax won't have toothpaste. Any regular business passenger staying longer that doesn't know the drill deserves the punishment of a bag in the hold. Not that delivery at SEN takes very long, especially from props.
The point about proximity to airport compared to rail station in Carlisle was disregarded. Of course, not everyone will live in the very centre of Carlisle anyway and though I've not been there I'm guessing early morning buses are few and far between.
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Jolly interesting recent post on the Stansted thread by vctenderness regarding experience on arrival at Stansted. Seems to have taken well in excess of 2 hours from disembarking to reaching car park!!! My word - I was just comparing that with the SEN experience. Now - which is better? Hmmm!!!!
Well upon arrival back in to STN it was a total fiasco, no transport there to meet me, calling hotel to be met with "blonde" responses, eventually, eventually, I became repatriated with my car and made my way home to LGW.
Next time I thought "I'll beat them" so I parked my car in Stansted Mountfitchet Rail Station for the 8 minute train to the airport and all went well on the inward.
Ever tried catching a train from STN airport on a Sunday?
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Cumbrianboy's figures are entirely reasonable. The typical ill-informed and inflammatory garbage from the respondent.
I've got to my car, pulled out the car park and driven past McDonalds a shade over ten minutes after touchdown from a domestic flight. You can easily be on a train by that time, they are every 10 minutes at peak so 20 mins from plane to train at worst. Even arriving on an international EZY off-peak with luggage you would be very unlucky to have to spend more than 35 mins between touchdown and train .
Online check in removed the need for business travellers to queue some time ago.
Day return pax won't have toothpaste. Any regular business passenger staying longer that doesn't know the drill deserves the punishment of a bag in the hold. Not that delivery at SEN takes very long, especially from props.
The point about proximity to airport compared to rail station in Carlisle was disregarded. Of course, not everyone will live in the very centre of Carlisle anyway and though I've not been there I'm guessing early morning buses are few and far between.
I've got to my car, pulled out the car park and driven past McDonalds a shade over ten minutes after touchdown from a domestic flight. You can easily be on a train by that time, they are every 10 minutes at peak so 20 mins from plane to train at worst. Even arriving on an international EZY off-peak with luggage you would be very unlucky to have to spend more than 35 mins between touchdown and train .
Online check in removed the need for business travellers to queue some time ago.
Day return pax won't have toothpaste. Any regular business passenger staying longer that doesn't know the drill deserves the punishment of a bag in the hold. Not that delivery at SEN takes very long, especially from props.
The point about proximity to airport compared to rail station in Carlisle was disregarded. Of course, not everyone will live in the very centre of Carlisle anyway and though I've not been there I'm guessing early morning buses are few and far between.
If I am so wrong then I challenge you to get from central Carlisle to a London rail terminus in 2hrs 35mins by public transport ... It ain't ever going to happen
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Phileas, did you read my post? I know that not many people live in central Carlisle, in the same way very few people live in the centre of London.
If you don't live in the centre then you need to drive to the centre with the morning rush or drive to the airport which is going against the traffic. Eitherway, you have to drive there. Forget public transport, outside of London it is too infrequent to be relied upon and anyone who has lived in the lakes (first hand experience here) will have a car.
Carlisle airport, possibly 2 flights departing together, it's an LCY-style operation, so of course you can rock up 30 mins before, no problem. In fact it will be one of their major selling points I am sure.
Your anxiety over traffic and delays etc applies equally to the train and as has been pointed out, these days everyone knows the restrictions on liquids. By the way, if you've flown recently you will know you CAN take them through security, you just have to pop them into a little clear bag.
The flight WILL take less than an hour. The transfer to the train WILL take a maximum of 20 mins (I'll let you have the 5 minutes), the train to London WILL take 50 minutes. So from arriving at the airport to stepping onto the Liverpool Street platform will take 2hr40 mins. The train DOES take 4hrs + 15 mins to arrive and collect tickets etc. Most people will probably arrive with 30 mins to spare.
So even if you fanny around for half an hour, you're still going to get to your destination at least an hour or more quicker if travelling by plane.
It is known that for a rail journey of less than 3 hours, train is quicker, that's obvious, but when you are talking >4 hours, the flight starts to look very appealing, especially if you can travel secondary airport to secondary airport and avoid the big hubs.
Sorry if I don't agree with you mr Fogg, but i used to travel regularly on the 0700 shuttle from Manchester to Heathrow and was always in central london happily by 9 in the days before the Heathrow express. If you can do it from MAN and LHR with long walks and busy airports, I am damn sure you can manage it from CAX to SEN
If you don't live in the centre then you need to drive to the centre with the morning rush or drive to the airport which is going against the traffic. Eitherway, you have to drive there. Forget public transport, outside of London it is too infrequent to be relied upon and anyone who has lived in the lakes (first hand experience here) will have a car.
Carlisle airport, possibly 2 flights departing together, it's an LCY-style operation, so of course you can rock up 30 mins before, no problem. In fact it will be one of their major selling points I am sure.
Your anxiety over traffic and delays etc applies equally to the train and as has been pointed out, these days everyone knows the restrictions on liquids. By the way, if you've flown recently you will know you CAN take them through security, you just have to pop them into a little clear bag.
The flight WILL take less than an hour. The transfer to the train WILL take a maximum of 20 mins (I'll let you have the 5 minutes), the train to London WILL take 50 minutes. So from arriving at the airport to stepping onto the Liverpool Street platform will take 2hr40 mins. The train DOES take 4hrs + 15 mins to arrive and collect tickets etc. Most people will probably arrive with 30 mins to spare.
So even if you fanny around for half an hour, you're still going to get to your destination at least an hour or more quicker if travelling by plane.
It is known that for a rail journey of less than 3 hours, train is quicker, that's obvious, but when you are talking >4 hours, the flight starts to look very appealing, especially if you can travel secondary airport to secondary airport and avoid the big hubs.
Sorry if I don't agree with you mr Fogg, but i used to travel regularly on the 0700 shuttle from Manchester to Heathrow and was always in central london happily by 9 in the days before the Heathrow express. If you can do it from MAN and LHR with long walks and busy airports, I am damn sure you can manage it from CAX to SEN
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cumbrianboy,
I'm tired now, it's 2130 hours now here in "Basingstoke", one is never going to successfully plan on checking in at STD - 30 minutes (to the second), that the route (block to block) will take 1 hour or less and then a transfer to the rail station in 15 minutes with absolutely no waiting time for a train.
My background is scheduling and never in a million years would I suggest to the honest folk of Carlisle that they could be from their front door in Carlisle to a rail terminus in London in less than 3 hours!
I'm tired now, it's 2130 hours now here in "Basingstoke", one is never going to successfully plan on checking in at STD - 30 minutes (to the second), that the route (block to block) will take 1 hour or less and then a transfer to the rail station in 15 minutes with absolutely no waiting time for a train.
My background is scheduling and never in a million years would I suggest to the honest folk of Carlisle that they could be from their front door in Carlisle to a rail terminus in London in less than 3 hours!
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We disagree and that's what makes this such a wonderful world to be in.
The fact is, you've not been to Southend (clearly) as my times allow a wait for the train and neither have you been to Carlisle as even in bad traffic from the station to the airport is around a 16 minute drive.
Eitherway, it clearly saves times to fly, you would rather take the train. Go for it and enjoy the views …
I've made my point and stand by what I know to be accurate, if you agree or not is your prerogative!
The fact is, you've not been to Southend (clearly) as my times allow a wait for the train and neither have you been to Carlisle as even in bad traffic from the station to the airport is around a 16 minute drive.
Eitherway, it clearly saves times to fly, you would rather take the train. Go for it and enjoy the views …
I've made my point and stand by what I know to be accurate, if you agree or not is your prerogative!