Sheffield City Airport Petition
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I think a couple of relevant points to this thread have been lost in time. Taken from evidence put in the public domain during the Finningley Public Inquiry -
1. Peel were approached to purchase SZD only after other parties had declined it, including MAG.
2. When any business is losing money it can be sold for a small amount as the purchaser is buying the obligation to fund losses. SZD was a loss making business prior to Peel's involvement
3. The deal was signed in August 2011, one month later 9.11 happened and 2 of the 3 operators left, BA and Aer Arann, simply because it was already poor performing and the 9.11 impact decimated their loads
4. Evidence at the Inquiry, not disputed at the time, showed that Sabena left because of poor performance and said they would not return. KLM left when they upgraded their fleet and the runway became too short for them.
5. Despite being last to be invited to take it on, Peel committed to try to win in new business, which given that the likes of Ryanair, easyJet, TUI etc all have no aircraft small enough, meant that Flybe were one of the few left who :-
a) could land their (with their aircraft being small enough) and
b) hadn't loved and lost like Sabena and Aer Arann.
Flybe and any other left, were approached with a no airport charges deal plus marketing incentives but firmly said no.
6. No business person came in from the region to say they were going to start a commercial airline
And for those who criticise Peel as a property developer, remember it was they who delivered something like 800% growth at Liverpool at a time when no others would buy it. So SZD could have happened, but most probably needed a much longer runway.
Looking ahead Sheffield leaders ought to go the 20-25 mins to DSA and stick a flag in the ground; rename it Sheffield Doncaster Airport if you like (it's as close to Sheffield as many leading European airports are to their cities); capitalise on the fact that the Sheffield City Region already includes this 3000m runway and lobby for fast road connections;
Had the region pulled itself together, perhaps the HS2 would be having Sheffield Doncaster Airport as a stop and with fast road links that would probably helped the job market there.
1. Peel were approached to purchase SZD only after other parties had declined it, including MAG.
2. When any business is losing money it can be sold for a small amount as the purchaser is buying the obligation to fund losses. SZD was a loss making business prior to Peel's involvement
3. The deal was signed in August 2011, one month later 9.11 happened and 2 of the 3 operators left, BA and Aer Arann, simply because it was already poor performing and the 9.11 impact decimated their loads
4. Evidence at the Inquiry, not disputed at the time, showed that Sabena left because of poor performance and said they would not return. KLM left when they upgraded their fleet and the runway became too short for them.
5. Despite being last to be invited to take it on, Peel committed to try to win in new business, which given that the likes of Ryanair, easyJet, TUI etc all have no aircraft small enough, meant that Flybe were one of the few left who :-
a) could land their (with their aircraft being small enough) and
b) hadn't loved and lost like Sabena and Aer Arann.
Flybe and any other left, were approached with a no airport charges deal plus marketing incentives but firmly said no.
6. No business person came in from the region to say they were going to start a commercial airline
And for those who criticise Peel as a property developer, remember it was they who delivered something like 800% growth at Liverpool at a time when no others would buy it. So SZD could have happened, but most probably needed a much longer runway.
Looking ahead Sheffield leaders ought to go the 20-25 mins to DSA and stick a flag in the ground; rename it Sheffield Doncaster Airport if you like (it's as close to Sheffield as many leading European airports are to their cities); capitalise on the fact that the Sheffield City Region already includes this 3000m runway and lobby for fast road connections;
Had the region pulled itself together, perhaps the HS2 would be having Sheffield Doncaster Airport as a stop and with fast road links that would probably helped the job market there.
Last edited by aboveusonlysky; 29th Jan 2013 at 15:43.
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Just one thing missing from EGCA's history lesson - back in the early 70's Sheffield City Council approached the five local authorities that ran EMA to join them. I believe they offered a fair amount of money for a share, but their approach was rejected.
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Mike
...and didn't those Queen Airs make a great sound!
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Given that the new HS2 is going to be stopping not far from Sheffield City, Then perhaps they ought to keep it.
Question is , Can this guy who us fronting the money stretch to a runway extension.
As who currently fan operate there?.
Almost certaintly no Jet operators?
Question is , Can this guy who us fronting the money stretch to a runway extension.
As who currently fan operate there?.
Almost certaintly no Jet operators?
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Just out of curiosity what upgrade in fleet caused KLM to withdraw, would it have been when they withdrew from service the ex Netherlines SF340's and the NLM/KLM F50's simply couldn't perform in/out of Sheffield?
aboveusonlysky, your post has a few discrepencies. A response from someone who doesnt post on here..
para2...An understanding ( not an agreement) was signed on 31July2001. This understanding it abundantly clear that SCA will be closed for redevelopment...when "better services are available at Finningley. The "better services" to any destination other than a hiliday flight or eastern Europe simply isn't there.
BA and Aer Arran, according to the Airport's minutes ,were performing well with good loadings. Aer Arran had their own financial problems but asked to restart services...BA Regional had good loadings ( except the service to LCY) but had a re-organisation. Later neither could return since the ILS and safety equipment had been withdrawn.
para 4... There never was an enquiry...That's what Sheffielders have been asking for since 2005! Sabena left after financial problems caused by 9/11. KLM left after Schiphol reduced slots and a policy of "last in first out" was adopted. KLM claimed it was the best start-up service ever and a waiting list was applied for seats on certain flights....According to the Minutes KLM were proposing restarting services in the future.
para8... Within months of Peel buying in, Rescue and Fire services were withdrawn allowing just the minimum cover and not sufficient for commercial aviation. The ILS was also withdrawn.
para 9...Quite to the contrary, the Airport Minutes show that subsidy was never offered to any service...although in a 2000 report the matter was broached.
BA and Aer Arran, according to the Airport's minutes ,were performing well with good loadings. Aer Arran had their own financial problems but asked to restart services...BA Regional had good loadings ( except the service to LCY) but had a re-organisation. Later neither could return since the ILS and safety equipment had been withdrawn.
para 4... There never was an enquiry...That's what Sheffielders have been asking for since 2005! Sabena left after financial problems caused by 9/11. KLM left after Schiphol reduced slots and a policy of "last in first out" was adopted. KLM claimed it was the best start-up service ever and a waiting list was applied for seats on certain flights....According to the Minutes KLM were proposing restarting services in the future.
para8... Within months of Peel buying in, Rescue and Fire services were withdrawn allowing just the minimum cover and not sufficient for commercial aviation. The ILS was also withdrawn.
para 9...Quite to the contrary, the Airport Minutes show that subsidy was never offered to any service...although in a 2000 report the matter was broached.
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BA and Aer Arran, according to the Airport's minutes ,were performing well with good loadings.
BA Regional had good loadings ( except the service to LCY)
para 4... There never was an enquiry...That's what Sheffielders have been asking for since 2005!
KLM claimed it was the best start-up service ever and a waiting list was applied for seats on certain flights....According to the Minutes KLM were proposing restarting services in the future.
Minutes can say anything. Proposing? Thinking about it? Signed contract totally different.
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This has been a nice little thread but unfortunately it is going nowhere.As much as some of you posters want Sheffield to have its own airport it is not going to happen.All the arguments for it to be reopened.and all the reasons why it should be reopened will not make it a viable option. Look up the road to Doncaster and remember all the hype how it would be Yorkshires number one airport.How they would attract significant numbers of passengers from the LBA.EMA and MAN but it didn't happen.So what chance is there that Sheffield will reopen?The answer is no chance.So maybe it is time to put this thread to bed and just dream about Sheffield with a 3000mtr runway.
So which bits of the report do you disagree with ?
London tends to be quite an important market for a regional airport, especially one that itself is using the "City" branding. With LCY gone, whole business case already massively weakened. You can't just "except" such a core market!
cks.. How many UK regional airports still have a connection to London, then how many of those are linked with LCY..?
See above. Let's see the evidence this airport was a real going concern.
The old loads instead of yields argument
Look up the road to Doncaster and remember all the hype how it would be Yorkshires number one airport.How they would attract significant numbers of passengers from the LBA.EMA and MAN but it didn't happen
Knowing full well that I'm going around in circles I will say again. People with money and commercial accumen are currently in talks with the landowners with a view to purchasing the site and reopening the airport. That they believe there is a string case for this cannot be denied and I think some should let their ego's allow them to conceed that.
Will Peel sell? I'm 99.9% sure that they wont, but I still feel strongly that the whole subject should be debated in the open and the focus of an independent enquiry of sorts. At best this whole situation has been handled badly.
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Given that the new HS2 is going to be stopping not far from Sheffield City, Then perhaps they ought to keep it.
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...-55142_3-0.pdf
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Pug
1 - your point re understanding or agreement...It was stronger than this, there was a contract between the old owners and Peel, signed weeks before 9.11. Sabena left before 9.11 and before Peel's involvement.
2 - i recognise the point re yields vs loads. A lot of airports look at loads and load factors and think all is well, but from an airline's perspective, they could be dumping prices in order to fill the planes. Peel went to both Aer Arann and BA and pressed for the reintroductions. KLM said they could not operate the F50 at full payload and with payload restrictions they wouldn't do it. Yes costs had to be cut, it was losing a fortune.
3. The enquiry i refer to was the Finningley Public Inquiry, where MAG teamed up with LBA and SZD to object. The Inspector determined in his conclusion that their objections took up 65% of the Inquiry time. The irony was LBA and EMA listened to Peel's commercial case and promptly left to forge deals at their airports with carriers who were supportive of Finningley, but which was still going to take some years getting the approval and building it, so Finningley was possibly the best thing to happen to the other two to get them more active.
So a large part of these objections at the Inquiry were about the other airports including SZD.
4. Re commercial deals, there were commercial deals proposed to airlines which were at least as competitive as any deals I saw at the time and which totally subsidised landing fees with added marketing support, but the context was there were only a limited number of operators who could operate given the runway length.
So as i said, 'looking ahead Sheffield leaders ought to go the 20-25 mins to DSA and stick a flag in the ground; rename it Sheffield Doncaster Airport if you like (it's as close to Sheffield as many leading European airports are to their cities); capitalise on the fact that the Sheffield City Region already includes this 3000m runway and lobby for fast road connections'
1 - your point re understanding or agreement...It was stronger than this, there was a contract between the old owners and Peel, signed weeks before 9.11. Sabena left before 9.11 and before Peel's involvement.
2 - i recognise the point re yields vs loads. A lot of airports look at loads and load factors and think all is well, but from an airline's perspective, they could be dumping prices in order to fill the planes. Peel went to both Aer Arann and BA and pressed for the reintroductions. KLM said they could not operate the F50 at full payload and with payload restrictions they wouldn't do it. Yes costs had to be cut, it was losing a fortune.
3. The enquiry i refer to was the Finningley Public Inquiry, where MAG teamed up with LBA and SZD to object. The Inspector determined in his conclusion that their objections took up 65% of the Inquiry time. The irony was LBA and EMA listened to Peel's commercial case and promptly left to forge deals at their airports with carriers who were supportive of Finningley, but which was still going to take some years getting the approval and building it, so Finningley was possibly the best thing to happen to the other two to get them more active.
So a large part of these objections at the Inquiry were about the other airports including SZD.
4. Re commercial deals, there were commercial deals proposed to airlines which were at least as competitive as any deals I saw at the time and which totally subsidised landing fees with added marketing support, but the context was there were only a limited number of operators who could operate given the runway length.
So as i said, 'looking ahead Sheffield leaders ought to go the 20-25 mins to DSA and stick a flag in the ground; rename it Sheffield Doncaster Airport if you like (it's as close to Sheffield as many leading European airports are to their cities); capitalise on the fact that the Sheffield City Region already includes this 3000m runway and lobby for fast road connections'
Can only take your word for most of your post.
Having some experience within aviation revenue I understand this, but I find the airlines operating highly unlikely to have done this, not least KLM. If they said they were happy with loads and the flights were 'performing well' then yields will not have been so much a problem. The flights operated for longer than the typical 6 month trial seasons.
That there is a 3000m runway there is irrelevant, what is your point? Are you trying to suggest that the airport could attract long-haul operators? The airport has failed thus far to provide business destinations that are supported sufficiently. It has to be understandable why business groups are becoming impatient, particularly when they had an airport that in their view was perfectly capable of providing what they wanted in a far better location.. Hence, there are people prepared to put £millions into reopening the place.
i recognise the point re yields vs loads. A lot of airports look at loads and load factors and think all is well, but from an airline's perspective, they could be dumping prices in order to fill the planes.
capitalise on the fact that the Sheffield City Region already includes this 3000m runway and lobby for fast road connections'
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Pug
In it's heyday Sheffield City had a grand total of four "Puddle Jumper" operators, KLM pulled out, apparently, over aircraft performance, Sabena pulled out due to poor loads, BA dropped the LCY route due to poor loads also and, these days, Aer Arran have enough problems of their own without concerning themselves of any Sheffield petition.
As you've kind of admitted yourself any protest/petition to reopen the STOLPort is a case of "banging head" and "brick wall", the stats speak for themselves, of the previous four puddle jumper operators at least 50% lost money on the operation whilst the remaining 50% remain questionable regarding the same.
So where is any new airport operator likely to find the likes of an ATR42 and/or geriatric DHC8 operator to come and offer scheduled services ... Ah yes, there was Air SouthWest, ah yes, there was Air Wales, Air Wales in particular tried some niche routes and it caused them to close down, perhaps they could have added Sheffield to their route network and closed down even sooner!
OK, there's, perhaps, Eastern with their Jetstreams but having seen the "regional" fares they like to charge I can't really see anything taking off and anytime soon.
Time to switch off any life support system for Sheffield City Airport perhaps!
In it's heyday Sheffield City had a grand total of four "Puddle Jumper" operators, KLM pulled out, apparently, over aircraft performance, Sabena pulled out due to poor loads, BA dropped the LCY route due to poor loads also and, these days, Aer Arran have enough problems of their own without concerning themselves of any Sheffield petition.
As you've kind of admitted yourself any protest/petition to reopen the STOLPort is a case of "banging head" and "brick wall", the stats speak for themselves, of the previous four puddle jumper operators at least 50% lost money on the operation whilst the remaining 50% remain questionable regarding the same.
So where is any new airport operator likely to find the likes of an ATR42 and/or geriatric DHC8 operator to come and offer scheduled services ... Ah yes, there was Air SouthWest, ah yes, there was Air Wales, Air Wales in particular tried some niche routes and it caused them to close down, perhaps they could have added Sheffield to their route network and closed down even sooner!
OK, there's, perhaps, Eastern with their Jetstreams but having seen the "regional" fares they like to charge I can't really see anything taking off and anytime soon.
Time to switch off any life support system for Sheffield City Airport perhaps!
PF, as has already been posted. KLM did not pull out due to aircraft performance issues. It was in fact as a result of a slot issue at Schipol meaning a 'last in first out' policy was implemented. A number of regional airports were subject to frequency cuts at the same time.
Had an independent enquiry concluded that the airport was a lame duck then there would be no argument. However, a number of discrepencies exist, not least that the aviation consultant that contributed to the 2005 report, also contributed to a report a few years earlier with a completely different outcome.
I'm not putting words in anybodys mouth. I think this is my main point and one that has been ignored for some reason, that is there are people with money and commercial accumen in talks with the landowners with a view to investing £millions into reopening the facility.
I just find it a bit strange that people posting on a forum could somehow try to undermine their position without even knowing who these people are. Or that these people would make the time and effort without even having some sort of plan in place.
Had an independent enquiry concluded that the airport was a lame duck then there would be no argument. However, a number of discrepencies exist, not least that the aviation consultant that contributed to the 2005 report, also contributed to a report a few years earlier with a completely different outcome.
I'm not putting words in anybodys mouth. I think this is my main point and one that has been ignored for some reason, that is there are people with money and commercial accumen in talks with the landowners with a view to investing £millions into reopening the facility.
I just find it a bit strange that people posting on a forum could somehow try to undermine their position without even knowing who these people are. Or that these people would make the time and effort without even having some sort of plan in place.
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Pug,
I find it somewhat questionable to believe that "Royal Dutch Airlines" that owns and/or has shares in two Schiphol Handling Agents and/or owns or has shares in such airlines, past and present, as Netherlines, NLM, Martinair and Transavia, to name but four, should need to chop routes to/from it's home base 10 or 12 runway airport, that may use 4 runways, 2 each for take-offs and landings, consecutively, due to any restriction of airport capacity ... I just find it questionable to believe!
Aviation Consultant? ... Now you make me laugh ... In a previous life I went self-employed as an aviation consultant and, at one point, I found myself on contract to BAe Systems working alongside a BAe employeee who had, himself, applied and been accepted for a position within BAe as an aviation consultant and he questioned of me what an aviation consultant actually does? ... "It can mean anything you want it to mean and should not be taken too seriously" I explained to him.
Please try to get over it ... They tried a Sheffield City Airport and it was a money loser, it simply wasn't viable.
I find it somewhat questionable to believe that "Royal Dutch Airlines" that owns and/or has shares in two Schiphol Handling Agents and/or owns or has shares in such airlines, past and present, as Netherlines, NLM, Martinair and Transavia, to name but four, should need to chop routes to/from it's home base 10 or 12 runway airport, that may use 4 runways, 2 each for take-offs and landings, consecutively, due to any restriction of airport capacity ... I just find it questionable to believe!
Aviation Consultant? ... Now you make me laugh ... In a previous life I went self-employed as an aviation consultant and, at one point, I found myself on contract to BAe Systems working alongside a BAe employeee who had, himself, applied and been accepted for a position within BAe as an aviation consultant and he questioned of me what an aviation consultant actually does? ... "It can mean anything you want it to mean and should not be taken too seriously" I explained to him.
Please try to get over it ... They tried a Sheffield City Airport and it was a money loser, it simply wasn't viable.
Aviation Consultant? ... Now you make me laugh ... In a previous life I went self-employed as an aviation consultant and, at one point, I found myself on contract to BAe Systems working alongside a BAe employeee who had, himself, applied and been accepted for a position within BAe as an aviation consultant and he questioned of me what an aviation consultant actually does? ... "It can mean anything you want it to mean and should not be taken too seriously" I explained to him.
They tried a Sheffield City Airport and it was a money loser, it simply wasn't viable.
I find it somewhat questionable to believe that "Royal Dutch Airlines" that owns and/or has shares in two Schiphol Handling Agents and/or owns or has shares in such airlines, past and present, as Netherlines, NLM, Martinair and Transavia, to name but four, should need to chop routes to/from it's home base 10 or 12 runway airport, that may use 4 runways, 2 each for take-offs and landings, consecutively, due to any restriction of airport capacity ... I just find it questionable to believe!
I take it you wont be visiting this thread any longer, having put Sheffield City Airport to bed and all...
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Aha,
So it wasn't KLM mainline or Cityhopper, it was KLM UK which was another old employer of mine from previous lives, Air UK, indeed Air Anglia and British Island Airways, under a different branding hence why they may, or may not, have lost slots in/out of AMS.
Not visit this thread any longer? ...It's 2 o'clock in the afternoon to you, 10 o'clock in the evening to me, what else would I do after a long day's work and whilst supping my evening beer(s) before bedtime?
So it wasn't KLM mainline or Cityhopper, it was KLM UK which was another old employer of mine from previous lives, Air UK, indeed Air Anglia and British Island Airways, under a different branding hence why they may, or may not, have lost slots in/out of AMS.
Not visit this thread any longer? ...It's 2 o'clock in the afternoon to you, 10 o'clock in the evening to me, what else would I do after a long day's work and whilst supping my evening beer(s) before bedtime?