Sheffield City Airport Petition
If SZD was viable through non-commercial flights, what would have stopped it continuing as a going concern?
Again, you are twisting what I am saying. I said:
Quote:
perhaps I am just applying a cold, hard, accountants' look at the realities?
Quote:
perhaps I am just applying a cold, hard, accountants' look at the realities?
The rest doesn't warrant the effort of a reply. Someone who has the money, and by all accounts commercial awareness, is interested in taking over the site. I think I will wait to see what happens with that than take anything you are saying seriously. So I shall wait and see
Last edited by pug; 11th Jan 2013 at 11:57.
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Someone who has the money, and by all accounts commercial awareness, is interested in taking over the site.
You are right in that my comments are indeed speculation, I do not have any rumours to serve up. However, they are based on a reasonable assessment of the evidence.
All we have as rumour right now is one potential interested party, no deal on the table, no business plan with which to turn that deal into a thriving, viable airport.
Im not twisting anything, that quote is open to interpretation. I'm not an accountant, but I would presume that an accountant would need to see at least a reasonable number of financial reports to make a judgement
Without commercial routes, there is no case for this airport beyond that which already could have been exploited in the 6 years after commercial flights stopped.
The rest doesn't warrant the effort of a reply.
I can understand the local anger and suspicion about the terms of the original deal. However, even if dubious intentions were proven - in a public inquiry, a court of law or elsewhere, none of this would go any further towards making the airport viable. Public Inquiries are very good at taking up time, but they don't create viable business plans.
In the meantime, bear in mind that Peel still had to build the airport and run it at a loss for 10 years, so they didn't just "get" the land for £1.
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I'm not from Sheffield and I'm not from Coventry and neither Coventry Airport nor Sheffield Heliport, come an Airport, are likely to turn a penny in profit for the foreseeable years ahead.
Sheffield Airport closed, Coventry Airport closed, someone with a bucket load of money re-opened Coventry but it may as well have stayed closed, so someone with a bucket load of money re-opens Sheffield ... With that length of runway it's likely to fare even worse than Coventry.
Boys and their toys!
Sheffield Airport closed, Coventry Airport closed, someone with a bucket load of money re-opened Coventry but it may as well have stayed closed, so someone with a bucket load of money re-opens Sheffield ... With that length of runway it's likely to fare even worse than Coventry.
Boys and their toys!
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Well said PF
Because if he gets planning permission for his Gateway he will have two bucket loads.
Coventry City Council, as owners of freehold of Coventry Airport, gave the bit that is on their patch permission straight away, 9-0 in favour. Warwick District Council are still thinking about it.
Point being - SZD was so small, there was no other land around it. There is still meat on the CVT to be chewed on.
Anyway, that's for the CVT thread...
someone with a bucket load of money re-opened Coventry
Coventry City Council, as owners of freehold of Coventry Airport, gave the bit that is on their patch permission straight away, 9-0 in favour. Warwick District Council are still thinking about it.
Point being - SZD was so small, there was no other land around it. There is still meat on the CVT to be chewed on.
Anyway, that's for the CVT thread...
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It's just boys and their toys ... "They've got an airport so we want one too".
So expensive petition(s) merely based on matters of principle
Monchengladbach has an airport a similar size to Sheffield "Heliport", it too is pretty much useless
Last edited by bravobravo74; 11th Jan 2013 at 18:29.
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Who do you think you are? It's not your place to tell us why you think it is that we want a public inquiry into an issue that affects us. This kind of arrogance and disrespect gives PPRuNe a bad name.
This is a public forum which is open to debate, I am afraid you have to accept people may hold differing opinions to yourself. Denying people the right to voice that opinion is also disrespectful as well.
You obviously feel very deeply on the subject and that is to your credit, do not deny people the right to disagree.
This is a public forum which is open to debate, I am afraid you have to accept people may hold differing opinions to yourself. Denying people the right to voice that opinion is also disrespectful as well.
You obviously feel very deeply on the subject and that is to your credit, do not deny people the right to disagree.
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This is a public forum which is open to debate, I am afraid you have to accept people may hold differing opinions to yourself. Denying people the right to voice that opinion is also disrespectful as well.
You obviously feel very deeply on the subject and that is to your credit, do not deny people the right to disagree.
You obviously feel very deeply on the subject and that is to your credit, do not deny people the right to disagree.
I personally interpret the 'boys with toys' comment to be an ill-founded and patronising attempt to discredit the opinions of myself and hundreds of thousands of other people rather than a difference of opinion. The latter makes the world go round; the former is unfair and is something that I would always challenge whether that be on an internet forum or face to face.
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I personally interpret the 'boys with toys' comment to be an ill-founded and patronising attempt to discredit the opinions of myself and hundreds of thousands of other people rather than a difference of opinion.
There is absolutely nothing at all wrong with wanting to see your local airport (or football club or city centre or anything else) doing well, or indeed existing in the first place.
I say that as someone who spent a great deal of time supporting CVT at the public inquiry, even though they were a commercial organisation, then part of TUI. I simply believed that local people had a right to use our airport, and that the narrow minded attitudes (and in some cases outright lies) of local people needed to be taken head on.
Like a good university (or two), an airport is a good thing for a major city to have, and it all adds up in the urban top trumps game.
However, none of this alters my view that the business case to bring back SZD is there. I wish you luck with your campaign, but I really don't see it happening, for all the reasons already mentioned.
As for land value, airports with only a handful of scheduled flights are not particularly good utilisers of land. Whereas a railway needs to be continually extended to serve more cities, SZD, whilst compact, has never even handled more than 100k pax in a year, and thus a business park may well be the best use for the site, however mundane that might be.
In the longer run, even though Meadowhall is a bit of a Ryanstation compared to the city centre, if that is where the HS2 station is going, then that makes the SZD land more useful as a business park (and not as some form of fantasy integrated hub, which would need an airport 100x bigger than SZD in its busiest year). Note - HS2 is likely to pass very near to, but not through EMA.
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So what is Sheffield does re-open as an airport, what are they going to do with it and has the population of Sheffield been approached to see if they'd be willing to subsidise it until it may, if ever, reach break-even point?
Reading of the previous operators to the airport, KLM might have made it initially pay, with their significant route network, utilising 50 seaters but KLM don't operate anything smaller than 80 seats these days and those don't have the performance to operate to/from such a STOLPort.
Sabena ... well they won't be coming back and SN/Brussels Airlines haven't got a route network of any significance to offer connections on.
British Airways? ... Yeah, right.
And Aer Arran have got problems of their own.
So who does that leave to operate to/from a re-opened Sheffield City Airport and on what routes?
Meanwhile ... just up country planning permission has been granted to build a Doncaster/Sheffield Airport rail station, why don't the "Sheffielders" petition for a PDQ train service from/to Finningley and the centre of Sheffield and then work on enticing the likes of KLM with their 80 seaters back to a Sheffield Airport (if in name only) that has a runway rather than half a runway and at least try to make one airport work rather than two that fail?
Or, might I ask, aren't trains as exciting as aeroplanes?
Reading of the previous operators to the airport, KLM might have made it initially pay, with their significant route network, utilising 50 seaters but KLM don't operate anything smaller than 80 seats these days and those don't have the performance to operate to/from such a STOLPort.
Sabena ... well they won't be coming back and SN/Brussels Airlines haven't got a route network of any significance to offer connections on.
British Airways? ... Yeah, right.
And Aer Arran have got problems of their own.
So who does that leave to operate to/from a re-opened Sheffield City Airport and on what routes?
Meanwhile ... just up country planning permission has been granted to build a Doncaster/Sheffield Airport rail station, why don't the "Sheffielders" petition for a PDQ train service from/to Finningley and the centre of Sheffield and then work on enticing the likes of KLM with their 80 seaters back to a Sheffield Airport (if in name only) that has a runway rather than half a runway and at least try to make one airport work rather than two that fail?
Or, might I ask, aren't trains as exciting as aeroplanes?
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PF said:
Permission may well have been granted to build a station at Finningley on the Doncaster-Lincoln line, but I don't think this will happen in the foreseeable future.
Several things militate against this proposal:
- the poor existing service on the line
- the low numbers of flights and passengers using the airport, especially in winter
- the inconvenient flight arrival and departure times, concentrated in the early morning/evening
- it had been proposed to divert the Lincoln-Sheffield- Doncaster-Adwick stopping trains to a P+R station at Finningley. Apart from depriving Adwick and Bentley of their service, it would have to traverse the very busy East Coast Main Line, causing pathing problems
- The distance between any potential station and the terminal is not negligible, and would require a shuttle bus; the bus from Doncaster Station/Interchange only takes about 35 minutes anyway except in heavy peak hours
- the nature of the clientele. DSA is not a tourist destination per se, so I would think the majority of passengers are dropped off by families, friends, or taxis/minibuses whether they are going on holiday or returning to Poland/Lithuania. The parking charge is reasonable if you book in advance.
The new road link to the M18, which has been approved, will facilitate this further, and provide faster times to Sheffield anyway. So I agree with you in some respects, just a different transport method.
Meanwhile ... just up country planning permission has been granted to build a Doncaster/Sheffield Airport rail station, why don't the "Sheffielders" petition for a PDQ train service from/to Finningley and the centre of Sheffield and then work on enticing the likes of KLM with their 80 seaters back to a Sheffield Airport (if in name only) that has a runway rather than half a runway and at least try to make one airport work rather than two that fail?
Or, might I ask, aren't trains as exciting as aeroplanes?
Or, might I ask, aren't trains as exciting as aeroplanes?
Several things militate against this proposal:
- the poor existing service on the line
- the low numbers of flights and passengers using the airport, especially in winter
- the inconvenient flight arrival and departure times, concentrated in the early morning/evening
- it had been proposed to divert the Lincoln-Sheffield- Doncaster-Adwick stopping trains to a P+R station at Finningley. Apart from depriving Adwick and Bentley of their service, it would have to traverse the very busy East Coast Main Line, causing pathing problems
- The distance between any potential station and the terminal is not negligible, and would require a shuttle bus; the bus from Doncaster Station/Interchange only takes about 35 minutes anyway except in heavy peak hours
- the nature of the clientele. DSA is not a tourist destination per se, so I would think the majority of passengers are dropped off by families, friends, or taxis/minibuses whether they are going on holiday or returning to Poland/Lithuania. The parking charge is reasonable if you book in advance.
The new road link to the M18, which has been approved, will facilitate this further, and provide faster times to Sheffield anyway. So I agree with you in some respects, just a different transport method.
Last edited by johnnychips; 12th Jan 2013 at 02:14. Reason: Route clarity
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...KLM might have made it initially pay, with their significant route network, utilising 50 seaters but KLM don't operate anything smaller than 80 seats these days and those don't have the performance to operate to/from such a STOLPort.
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Quote: "As for the "Sheffield is the largest city without" - I remember using a similar argument for CVT, except it went along the lines of "we're the largest UK city with an airport with a runway capable of handling the B737 that doesn't currently do so.
So what? It was merely a pointer to the ideal that a city of our size would benefit from having a network of loco flights. Of course we would, of course SZD would benefit the city of Sheffield."
The difference between Coventry and Sheffield is that Coventry has one of the UK's largest airports (Elmdon) on it's door step (and used to have a rail/bus link to Heathrow via Watford).
"So might HS2, but you get that in Meadowhall Ryanair East Parkway, and we'll have to go to a "Brum" station."
Under the present lunatic proposals, all high speed rail journeys will have to go via a "Brum" station!
Complete waste of time! There is no point in having "high speed" rail if its stops are in the middle of nowhere!
Why? Because all the time-savings advantages accrued are lost by the need to faff around getting to the city or a proper transport hub (e.g. in this case, Sheffield Midland station) for the onward journey.
In addition to being dumped miles from the centre, travelling between
London and Sheffield on a high speed train will involve a dog leg via Birmingham. In reality there won't really be a time saving on the "high speed" route compared to the traditional direct route on the electrified (by then) East Midlands line.
It certainly wouldn't be worth paying the premium for: better off upgrading to first class on the direct route!
Quote: "So who does that leave to operate to/from a re-opened Sheffield City Airport and on what routes?"
Being a primarily business airport, a link to London (and other cities) would be necessary, but it appears not to have been viable. Maybe this is because LHR wasn't expanded when it should have been, so any potential commuter flights couldn't have taken advantage of carrying interlining connecting pax as well. There would not have been this extra traffic on SZD-LCY for example.
Quote: "Meanwhile ... just up country planning permission has been granted to build a Doncaster/Sheffield Airport rail station, why don't the "Sheffielders" petition for a PDQ train service from/to Finningley and the centre of Sheffield and then work on enticing the likes of KLM with their 80 seaters back to a Sheffield Airport (if in name only) that has a runway rather than half a runway and at least try to make one airport work rather than two that fail?
A Finningley station is a good idea - provided it's walking distance from the terminal! If a bus journey is involved, it might as well link DSA to Doncaster and Sheffield stations direct. traffic volumes at DSA may not warrant any of this.
Quote: "Or, might I ask, aren't trains as exciting as aeroplanes?"
They can be if they go centre to centre. If you have to go to an out-of- town location to catch the train, you may as well fly (it's quicker and probably cheaper).
So what? It was merely a pointer to the ideal that a city of our size would benefit from having a network of loco flights. Of course we would, of course SZD would benefit the city of Sheffield."
The difference between Coventry and Sheffield is that Coventry has one of the UK's largest airports (Elmdon) on it's door step (and used to have a rail/bus link to Heathrow via Watford).
"So might HS2, but you get that in Meadowhall Ryanair East Parkway, and we'll have to go to a "Brum" station."
Under the present lunatic proposals, all high speed rail journeys will have to go via a "Brum" station!
Complete waste of time! There is no point in having "high speed" rail if its stops are in the middle of nowhere!
Why? Because all the time-savings advantages accrued are lost by the need to faff around getting to the city or a proper transport hub (e.g. in this case, Sheffield Midland station) for the onward journey.
In addition to being dumped miles from the centre, travelling between
London and Sheffield on a high speed train will involve a dog leg via Birmingham. In reality there won't really be a time saving on the "high speed" route compared to the traditional direct route on the electrified (by then) East Midlands line.
It certainly wouldn't be worth paying the premium for: better off upgrading to first class on the direct route!
Quote: "So who does that leave to operate to/from a re-opened Sheffield City Airport and on what routes?"
Being a primarily business airport, a link to London (and other cities) would be necessary, but it appears not to have been viable. Maybe this is because LHR wasn't expanded when it should have been, so any potential commuter flights couldn't have taken advantage of carrying interlining connecting pax as well. There would not have been this extra traffic on SZD-LCY for example.
Quote: "Meanwhile ... just up country planning permission has been granted to build a Doncaster/Sheffield Airport rail station, why don't the "Sheffielders" petition for a PDQ train service from/to Finningley and the centre of Sheffield and then work on enticing the likes of KLM with their 80 seaters back to a Sheffield Airport (if in name only) that has a runway rather than half a runway and at least try to make one airport work rather than two that fail?
A Finningley station is a good idea - provided it's walking distance from the terminal! If a bus journey is involved, it might as well link DSA to Doncaster and Sheffield stations direct. traffic volumes at DSA may not warrant any of this.
Quote: "Or, might I ask, aren't trains as exciting as aeroplanes?"
They can be if they go centre to centre. If you have to go to an out-of- town location to catch the train, you may as well fly (it's quicker and probably cheaper).
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 12th Jan 2013 at 11:43.
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FDF,
Looking at GE I'd guesstimate that from the railway line to DSA terminal is approx 1km ... and I'd guesstimate that is a similar distance to the main concourse and gate 22 (if it's still there after all these years) of LGW.
And why would such an airline as KLM want to operate in/out of a "skin of the teeth" airport such as Sheffield City, and with restricted loads, when there is a full size "Sheffield" airport just up the road and around the corner?
When Sheffield City was open previously there was no nearby alternative but thereafter the MoD released the former RAF Finningley and, these days, there is a nearby and full sized airport alternative.
Looking at GE I'd guesstimate that from the railway line to DSA terminal is approx 1km ... and I'd guesstimate that is a similar distance to the main concourse and gate 22 (if it's still there after all these years) of LGW.
And why would such an airline as KLM want to operate in/out of a "skin of the teeth" airport such as Sheffield City, and with restricted loads, when there is a full size "Sheffield" airport just up the road and around the corner?
When Sheffield City was open previously there was no nearby alternative but thereafter the MoD released the former RAF Finningley and, these days, there is a nearby and full sized airport alternative.
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And why would such an airline as KLM want to operate in/out of a "skin of the teeth" airport such as Sheffield City, and with restricted loads, when there is a full size "Sheffield" airport just up the road and around the corner?
When Easyjet had a 'half-base' at DSA, this necessitated a daily service to AMS, and the load averaged about 80 on a 319.
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The timings for Easyjet to AMS from DSA were not suited to the business traveler.
South Yorkshire can't sustain an airport - that is clear. DSA is almost the second failure.
South Yorkshire can't sustain an airport - that is clear. DSA is almost the second failure.
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Originally Posted by Phileas Fogg
It's just boys and their toys ... "They've got an airport so we want one too".
Sheffield airport is more use to the Sheffield economy than a bunch of airlines delivering bucket and spaders around the costas. You might not appreciate that from afar, but you can take it from people who do that are close to the issue.
Do somebody else a favour and get that petition signed
Redevelopment of Sheffield City Airport - PetitionBuzz
Last edited by eltonioni; 16th Jan 2013 at 07:14.
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Do your bit and sign that petition then!
Come on, support aviation. This is the last chance to save this facility in Sheffield and no matter what you personally think of the prognosis, you can do your bit to help prevent its loss - at absolutely no cost to yourself.
Redevelopment of Sheffield City Airport - PetitionBuzz
Come on, support aviation. This is the last chance to save this facility in Sheffield and no matter what you personally think of the prognosis, you can do your bit to help prevent its loss - at absolutely no cost to yourself.
Redevelopment of Sheffield City Airport - PetitionBuzz
