Sheffield City Airport Petition

[pug]

Once again I shall leave you to it then.

Im not sure what involvement you had at CVT but...

[jabird]

But what?

I lived in and still live in Coventry and had an interest in aviation. Therefore I spoke in favour of the airport at the first planning inquiry. I had no commercial involvement with the airport, if that's what you are asking.

[egcntristar]

Well the council have finally commented and have said the land is nothing to do with them, so any decision rests with the land owners. I thinks its highly unlikely Peel will give up/sell the land.

[EGCA]

helicopter use?

Just out of casual interest is the area at the eastern end of the airfield still only available to police and air ambulance helicopters, or does it have a wider permission now for commercial/executive rotary wing flights?

EGCA

[bravobravo74]

Several people on this forum don't seem to understand the reason behind the petition and the envisaged purpose of the airport should the site become one again.

As a Sheffield native and someone who is affected by the local economy let me spell out the attitude that lots of people in the city have which, incidentally, is shared by the Federation of Small Businesses.

Sheffield, the fourth-largest city in the country and the largest city in Europe without its own airport (DSA isn't really Sheffield), is about to lose a piece of tarmac. This piece of tarmac represents the city's only chance to benefit financially from air travel in the future. Sheffield City Airport ultimately wasn't given the opportunity it deserved thanks to executive incompetence (read into that what you will); the site's intact runway represents unfulfilled potential which, without too much difficulty, could be realised.

Nobody thinks that Sheffield City Airport could fulfil a similar function to or be as successful as London City however lots of people find it hard to believe that, quite simply, it couldn't eventually be more beneficial to Sheffield as an airport than another business park would be.

Incase you didn't know there is already a lot of unused office space around here.

[WH904]

As a Sheffielder, I'm afraid I have to say that Finningley isn't 20 minutes away. At best it takes 45 minutes by car, sometimes longer.

Sheffield Airport was (as has been said) deliberately sold so that it could be turned into a business park after a few years. Nobody with any brain cells in Sheffield believes anything other than this. We're all sure that the whole saga was a cynical plan to simply create a business park on the cheap. Sadly, our council are pretty good at creating stupid or expensive schemes.

The main reason the airport closed (so it was claimed) was that the main slots into Schipol were lost (maybe deliberately, who knows?) and this was used as the main excuse. Clearly, the runway was never long enough for serious commercial operations, but there's no reason why it could not be used for business flying and recreational flying, and perhaps a fast link to Finningley.

Truth of the matter is that our backward council doesn't want the airport and never did. They are only interested in investing in sport. If the project had been serious it wouldn't have been built where it is in the first place. An area where a longer runway could be laid would have been chosen.

Finningley has no relationship to Sheffield. Peel's cynical attempt to name the airport as "Sheffield-Doncaster" is just an insult. It's an hour away so it may as well be completely disassociated with us.

Sadly, I fear Sheffield will always be the largest city in Europe without an airport. Out retarded councillors are far more interested in football than flying and sadly the local electorate are sufficiently dim to keep voting for them

[Fairdealfrank]

Sheffield airport

Sheffield airport

Does seem a shame, the location appeared excellent.

To say that "DSA isn't really Sheffield" isn't the point: Heathrow is 20 mi. from London. Finningley is hardly a substitute, not neccessarily because of its location on the other side of Doncaster, but because of the inaccessibility.

Clearly a city the size of Sheffield does need an airport whether at Sheffield or at Finningley, if it's to be the latter, communications between it and Sheffield need to be beefed up.

Meanwhile Sheffield joins Croydon on the list of cities that used to have an airport!

Yes, before you start splitting hairs, BALHR, Croydon's Royal charter states "borough" rather than "city". City in this context means relatively densely populated urban centre. So no rant on this subject please.

[Northbound A1]

Peel and councillors

WH904, well said. Peel have a knack of getting the local councillors to give the publics land away...don't ask me how! Must be something in it for the councillors?

It started with Sheffield, and the very same thing is now happening at Teesside. The 6 local councils have given the land away, and Teesside even has a very long runway, so the old excuse of a short runway wont wash up here!

Perfect flat building land with a view of the Cleveland hills. Peel have their own website which alleges that there are 700,000 pax through it? They must be living in 2006 as the figures are nothing like that now.

Peel are after more government money to put roads and drains in around Teesside Airport under a second try at obtaining a regional grant. They don't say it will be aviation related though.

You should ask the press why local councillors give away public land to a private company. There has got to be something fishy going on. Teesside with its hundreds of acres was gifted to Peel for £500,000 with a promise of spending £20m... which didn't happen.

Peel had the usual 10 year clause in the contract though. you know the one, where Peel are given most of the shares if the council don't stump up millions to keep the airport open.

They don't need to rob a bank, the publics valuable land (airports) are being handed over on a plate to Peel by certain councillors!!!

I wish Watchdog would do a series on them, but I cant see that happening as Peel also own the land the BBC now rent in Manchester!

Funny handshakes going on left, right, and centre, according to some.

Just ask the DTV management and the local councillors who gifted the place to Peel

[bravobravo74]

Regardless of whether or not transport links are improved Finningley will never benefit Sheffield to an extent greater than the fact that local residents have one more airport to go on holiday from.

It's all about facilitating commerce and taking advantage of the fact that business takes the line of least resistance. If Gamston Airport near Retford can manage to justify its existence financially then surely Sheffield City Airport could.

At certain times of the day I reckon that I could get to Leeds city centre in less time from Sheffield City Airport than I could from Leeds Bradford Airport.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "At certain times of the day I reckon that I could get to Leeds city centre in less time from Sheffield City Airport than I could from Leeds Bradford Airport."

Is that because Sheffield is/was near the motorway network and Yeadon is miles away from it? Or are you referring to public transport?

[Phileas Fogg]

Monchengladbach has an airport a similar size to Sheffield "Heliport", it too is pretty much useless, previous scheduled service operator(s) have gone elsewhere and the people of Monchengladbach need to travel to DUS etc. if they want to fly anywhere.

So expensive petition(s) merely based on matters of principle aren't likely to bring scheduled air services of any worth back to the city and the people of Sheffield are still going to need to travel to other airports to fly anywhere.

It's just boys and their toys ... "They've got an airport so we want one too".

[jabird]

Right then, let's have a bit of perspective from a "mislead" non-Sheffielder, who couldn't possibly understand the problem by virtue of not living in Sheffield. I'll just put all my years of understanding the industry to one side and live entirely on emotion then?

there's no reason why it could not be used for business flying and recreational flying, and perhaps a fast link to Finningley.

Did I read that right? A shuttle flight to an airport that is just round the corner? By what means? Helicopter? Sorry, I don't want to knock Sheffield, but this is not the French Riviera, nor is there a high end demand for such a service backed up by lack of land for a runway, nor is there a major international airport at either end. So please, just forget that one!

In area where a longer runway could be laid would have been chosen.

Like DSA

Or are areas where long runways can be laid down without a substantial body of local objections (based on no prior aviation activity) ten a penny? To suggest as such is to suggest all the land around Sheffield is both worthless and free of populace, when clearly neither is true.

It started with Sheffield, and the very same thing is now happening at Teesside.

No, it started with increasing fuel prices, lower PSCs due to low cost airlines ruling the roost, was bolstered by rising APD and then the economic conditions made it worse still.

It has also happened at PLH (another airport with a great runway), it happened here at CVT 4 years ago (we also lose out because our runway precludes many FR 738 routes), and numerous other airports around the country are struggling too.

So Peel are not the perps here. I can accept they may have had other intentions at SZD (and guess what, similar accusations could be made here), but I don't accept that at LPL or MME.

Teesside even has a very long runway, so the old excuse of a short runway wont wash up here!

Err, a runway is only as good as the apron that feeds it and that in turn is only as good as the terminal pax are fed through, and that in turn depends on the catchment areas and road (/ rail) network around it.

valuable land (airports)

Not always the case. As a going concern, and airport is only worth a multiple of the profits it is able to generate from aviation and related activity. If closed, airport land can be affected by various covenants, not to mention the small fact that in many cases, the airport is classed as greenbelt, by virtue of the large amounts of grass which surround the runways / taxiways.

However, I would accept in Sheffield's case that the land may be worth more than at many other airports due to its location.

That still does not point directly to a conspiracy. A functioning airport can facilitate links to numerous destinations around Europe (and globally for a larger one), and thus it can create more linkage than a station or motorway junction ever can from a very small area. However, this is only relevant if a network of routes can be sustained, and that really doesn't seem to be the case.

So to blame losing slots at AMS, or to create any other kind of conspiracy is really only half the story. Of course, the airport's short shelf life is grounds for suspicion, which is entirely natural, but the nature of the whole aviation industry shows that there is no guarantee for any airport to be a going concern right now, especially one with a very restricted runway.

If Gamston Airport near Retford can manage to justify its existence financially then surely Sheffield City Airport could.

Oh please! If PC World can justify then surely Comet could?
If Max Spielman can then surely Jessops could?

You cannot point to the existence of one airfield in a more rural location with a different purpose and then suggest that an enitrely different business should be able to work any more than you can point out why two neighbours in the same street might have two entirely different jobs, if they work at all.

As for the "Sheffield is the largest city without" - I remember using a similar argument for CVT, except it went along the lines of "we're the largest UK city with an airport with a runway capable of handling the B737 that doesn't currently do so".

So what? It was merely a pointer to the ideal that a city of our size would benefit from having a network of loco flights. Of course we would, of course SZD would benefit the city of Sheffield.

So might HS2, but you get that in Meadowhall Ryanair East Parkway, and we'll have to go to a "Brum" station.

You can't win every battle you fight, but I really do think this one is pointless. There simply isn't a business case right now for a STOL operation at SZD, nor is there likely to be one soon.

DSA might primarily be a loco facility, but it still serves Sheffield and the rest of S Yorks, and is still closer to Sheffield than a number of other airports serving other European cities - and by that I mean single airport / cities - eg SZZ, SPU etc.

[pug]

As this is fast becoming a pissing contest, perhaps some should read the below link-

Mystery bidder wants to reopen Sheffield airport - Local Business - Sheffield Telegraph

.. and accept that there might be more to this than is public knowledge. The FSB might even know more of whats going on than you.

[jabird]

The FSB might even know more of whats going on than you.

Nothing new here as this was aired before Christmas.

So recycling an article that's already in public domain doesn't change the fact that SZD is an extremely difficult site on which to make a viable airport.

[pug]

As you are clearly still taking a 'cold, hard accountants' look at the situation, any luck with actually accessing the accounts?

[jabird]

any luck with actually accessing the accounts?

The track record of the airport when it was open is there for all to see.

Limted routes, limited frequencies delivered using size limited aircraft on a limited runway.

As I said above, the market conditions since the last commercial flights have got significantly worse, not better. Unless Sheffield as drifted off to the Firth of Forth lately, the lack of a case for a London route also remains a big obstacle.

Of course, a new owner / backer could come in and buy the airport, with a reasonable upbeat business plan. Delivering on that plan is going to prove extremely difficult.

[pug]

Good 'accountants' overview of the situation Jabird. I also like your fixation with routes, routes, routes. makes you wonder how Coventry is still open doesn't it.

[jabird]

I also like your fixation with routes, routes, routes. makes you wonder how Coventry is still open doesn't it

Well oddly enough, that's what makes an airport the most money! Commercial flights generate PSCs, fill car parks and keep shops busy, and they also mean significantly higher fuel farm usage.

Of course, there are plenty of smaller facilities which can survive off GA and a few bizjets, but that's not what we're talking about here.

Being open, operating passenger flights, and making money are three very different things. I suggest CVT is the former and not the latter, but whatever is happening here, I am merely an external commentator, I have nothing (and never have had anything) to do with the running of the airport, if that is what you are implying.

[pug]

Of course, there are plenty of smaller facilities which can survive off GA and a few bizjets, but that's not what we're talking about here.

It may not be what you are talking about, but what future does this unknown bidder see for the place?

Barton, owned by Peel, operates no scheduled flights. None of its runways are as long as SZD's and none of them are even asphalt! Why isn't that being built over? You only have to look at the council there..

Which is why I rest my case. You can go back and forth saying you are right, or you can wait and see what happens. You cannot say 'but this is a rumour network' as you haven't posted any rumours, just your own speculation. You haven't even given us an insight into the accounts which you had claimed to have used to make your judgement.

[jabird]

Barton, owned by Peel, operates no scheduled flights. None of its runways are as long as SZD's and none of them are even asphalt! Why isn't that being built over?

You are merely re-stating a point I covered above. Not all airports in the UK handle scheduled flights, just as not all railway stations handle express trains.

The point is SZD was built for commercial flights, it handled them for a while, and it no longer does. If SZD was viable through non-commercial flights, what would have stopped it continuing as a going concern?

For GA, bizjets etc, airport can set the rates, then wait for the business to come in - if the location, facilities and access are suitable, build it and people will come.

For a commercial operation, it is more complex - airport and airline need to negotiate the right deal, and in many cases, viability of the whole operation can depend on one deal, which may fall through for reasons beyond the airport's immediate control. Look how baby decided MME didn't suit their business model, and off they went. Or even here at CVT, it was all down to TOM - HLX and Wizz came and went very quickly, and neither could have sustained the airport on their own.

You haven't even given us an insight into the accounts which you had claimed to have used to make your judgement.

Again, you are twisting what I am saying. I said:

perhaps I am just applying a cold, hard, accountants' look at the realities?

I never said anything about reading financial reports. My interest, as I have already stated, is in commercial flight routes. These either thrive or fail based on financial realities.

So any talk of what the airport "could" or "should" do based on the size of the city or the development of a new business park nearby or the fact people from Sheffield want to travel to certain cities (as do business people in every city) is all based on hope.

My assessments were based on the small number of routes that came and went, and the realities of the current state of the market. If you have any form of hard evidence that I have mis-judged the situation, or that some new metal has been discovered and that Sheffield is the only city in the world capable of processing it, then by all means let's hear it.