MANCHESTER - 9
Join Date: Nov 1999
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Sometimes it's just a case of "bad timing" when aircraft has a need to divert.
I would suggest that a Friday evening/nighttime when plans by relevant handling agencies have been drawn up to have a certain amount of staff covering the expected flights with a lots of stands being occupied by aircraft having completed their flying duties for the day is likely to lead to a "no go" situation.
Have we soon forgotten about the TG 747, SQ A380 and AC A330 that all diverted in between 0700 and 0730 on 28th October? The relevant handling agencies I would imagine should still have a "normal" peak period shift on hand to cope with extra aircraft.
Other "smaller" airports, for want of a better phrase, may have the same number of staff on duty as MAN but as a result of perhaps having fewer aircraft on the ground or expected to arrive, could well be in a better position to handle extra flights.
I would suggest that a Friday evening/nighttime when plans by relevant handling agencies have been drawn up to have a certain amount of staff covering the expected flights with a lots of stands being occupied by aircraft having completed their flying duties for the day is likely to lead to a "no go" situation.
Have we soon forgotten about the TG 747, SQ A380 and AC A330 that all diverted in between 0700 and 0730 on 28th October? The relevant handling agencies I would imagine should still have a "normal" peak period shift on hand to cope with extra aircraft.
Other "smaller" airports, for want of a better phrase, may have the same number of staff on duty as MAN but as a result of perhaps having fewer aircraft on the ground or expected to arrive, could well be in a better position to handle extra flights.
Join Date: Nov 2012
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Balanced economy
Skipness, I see that you are clear why you think Heathrow needs to expand. You still haven't explained why the other smaller airports have to increase their cost base in order to ensure that Heathrow has adequate diversions. Or who pays for that excess capability.
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Who says they need to increase their cost base? In all honesty, how much money would it cost me as a passenger if they did? Diversions are not handled for free, they pay landing fees, ATC fees and parking fees and all the rest of it. The major cost is to the diverting airline. A well run airport can make money from this misfortune, a pared to the bone operation misses the opportunity.
There is no need for any smaller airport to make any infrastructure changes to handle LHR diversions. MAN, PIK and a few others are Code F and can handle the largest aircraft, the rest can be accepted where there's space.
There is no need for any smaller airport to make any infrastructure changes to handle LHR diversions. MAN, PIK and a few others are Code F and can handle the largest aircraft, the rest can be accepted where there's space.
Whilst what you say Re: handling agents may be true in part, there were a number of staff at one handling agent who did go the extra mile and who did work very long shifts in order to accept some of the diverts.
Join Date: Dec 2003
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But why ARE these issues specific to Manchester ?
On more occasions than not when Manchester is called upon to assist there seems to be issues, not all the time as was pointed out with Thai etc but lets be clear it's more often than not.
Do aircraft ever get turned away from Stansted, Birmingham, Liverpool, Leeds, Prestwick, Dublin or even Robin Hood ?
Maybe they do, if we have anybody behind the lines at these airports maybe they can compare notes ?
AND comparisons certaibly in terms of staffing can be made, after all it's only about scale !
Birmingham not exactly flush with parking and stands, my understanding is that like Manchester most gates are full first thing in the morning with based aircraft, no problems that I am aware of other than some miscommunication with the TAP. So how was staffing, offload, coaches, hotels etc organised down there ?
Liverpool had a number of EZY, again any issues with parking, staffing manning etc ?
Read many times that Leeds apparently is always full overnight, all stands full with based aircraft parked on taxiways, they still managed to squeeze in a couple of BA.
And what of the stand out Robin Hood ! 5 flights a day at best, My goodness it must be one man and his dog handling stuff over there.
It's in the middle of nowhere but they still managed to accept 4 Wizz and and an EZY late sametime as us on a Friday night... how ?
I'm baffled !
On more occasions than not when Manchester is called upon to assist there seems to be issues, not all the time as was pointed out with Thai etc but lets be clear it's more often than not.
Do aircraft ever get turned away from Stansted, Birmingham, Liverpool, Leeds, Prestwick, Dublin or even Robin Hood ?
Maybe they do, if we have anybody behind the lines at these airports maybe they can compare notes ?
AND comparisons certaibly in terms of staffing can be made, after all it's only about scale !
Birmingham not exactly flush with parking and stands, my understanding is that like Manchester most gates are full first thing in the morning with based aircraft, no problems that I am aware of other than some miscommunication with the TAP. So how was staffing, offload, coaches, hotels etc organised down there ?
Liverpool had a number of EZY, again any issues with parking, staffing manning etc ?
Read many times that Leeds apparently is always full overnight, all stands full with based aircraft parked on taxiways, they still managed to squeeze in a couple of BA.
And what of the stand out Robin Hood ! 5 flights a day at best, My goodness it must be one man and his dog handling stuff over there.
It's in the middle of nowhere but they still managed to accept 4 Wizz and and an EZY late sametime as us on a Friday night... how ?
I'm baffled !
Last edited by Bagso; 16th Feb 2014 at 12:56.
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But why ARE these issues specific to Manchester ?
On more occasions than not when Manchester is called upon to assist there seems to be issues, not all the time as was pointed out with Thai etc but lets be clear it's more often than not
On more occasions than not when Manchester is called upon to assist there seems to be issues, not all the time as was pointed out with Thai etc but lets be clear it's more often than not
Im not arguing that staff levels are low, and they are paid peanuts etc, that argument has been done to death already. We cannot have hoards of staff waiting around 'just in case', however, why does MAN seem to suffer more than others?
As I have said in the past, BHX has a very similar airline demographic to MAN, so should have a similar staff to flight ratio. That seems to accept anything and everything.
DSA has the bare bones staff due to traffic levels, still managed to offload 5 aircraft and send them back on their way within 1 hour of landing.
LBA is pretty much full overnight, still accepted 2 BA Airbus.
NCL, not the largest airport in the UK space wise, but still managed to take 2 larger aircraft than MAN could manage.
STN, I will assume is now going to be similar to MAN staff wise now they are the same company, still managed to take in double digit figure diverts from LHR/LGW and LCY.
So, why is MAN so unable to accept the same ratio of diverts that other similar or smaller airports are able to, why is this issue seemingly unique to MAN and what can be done, either attitude or physical change wise to alter this now pretty awful reputation it has not just on forums but with some airlines too?
Join Date: Jan 2007
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LAX-LHR.
Re " BHX has a very similar airline demographic to MAN, so should have a similar staff to flight ratio. That seems to accept anything and everything".
Seems recently the general rule for diversions now is BHX can accept two 77W/A330/747, up to five B767 size types, and numerous 737/A320 ,all at the same time, so they do have a limit of sorts.
These are the figures Ive heard recently from ground ops, but may well alter. They have had up to 5 wide bodies divert at the same few winters back, and the record was 5 B747s and 2 other WB many years ago though.
Do MAN not have a similar plan on what they can accept, might save some confusion ?
Nigel
Re " BHX has a very similar airline demographic to MAN, so should have a similar staff to flight ratio. That seems to accept anything and everything".
Seems recently the general rule for diversions now is BHX can accept two 77W/A330/747, up to five B767 size types, and numerous 737/A320 ,all at the same time, so they do have a limit of sorts.
These are the figures Ive heard recently from ground ops, but may well alter. They have had up to 5 wide bodies divert at the same few winters back, and the record was 5 B747s and 2 other WB many years ago though.
Do MAN not have a similar plan on what they can accept, might save some confusion ?
Nigel
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In the case of BA when disruption is expected in LHR, they do inquire with the stations that handle BA on a daily basis what their ability is likely to be if asked to handle diverts. A report has to be submitted to BA which includes information like staffing levels, hotel availability, Stand availability, De-icing capability, coaching availability and equipment availability. In terms of stand availability, the airport stated that up to 5x narrowbodies and 2 x widebody a/c could be accepted although only one widebody could be accepted by the handling agent due to only having one set of widebody steps on station, hence there being pics on the internet with the BA 767 with steps attached and the AA 767 without steps attached.
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Seems recently the general rule for diversions now is BHX can accept two 77W/A330/747, up to five B767 size types, and numerous 737/A320 ,all at the same time, so they do have a limit of sorts.
Do MAN not have a similar plan on what they can accept, might save some confusion ?
Do MAN not have a similar plan on what they can accept, might save some confusion ?
Looking at what has been reported here over the events of Friday, I'm presuming none of this happens now. It would seem that there were a lot of inconsistencies in messages being sent out if what is reported on here is true. That's not good.
And as has been reported, there no longer seems to be an incentive of any kind to go the extra mile to sort things out. Sad but there you go.
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In terms of stand availability, the airport stated that up to 5x narrowbodies
and 2 x widebody a/c could be accepted although only one widebody could be accepted by the handling agent due to only having one set of widebody steps on station, hence there being pics on the internet with the BA 767 with steps attached and the AA 767 without steps attached
and 2 x widebody a/c could be accepted although only one widebody could be accepted by the handling agent due to only having one set of widebody steps on station, hence there being pics on the internet with the BA 767 with steps attached and the AA 767 without steps attached
Join Date: Nov 1999
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The Winter Ops manual does contain this in 14.2:
"In order to protect our normal schedule of flights, Airfield Operations will closely monitor the operational capability of UK Airports and determine the number of parking stands available for diversionary aircraft. This assessment will be made at intervals of not less than 12 hours between the months of November and March inclusive.
The ADM will set an “inbound diversion cap” and notify ATC of any capacity limitations. The “cap” is intended to identify the number of inbound aircraft which can be accepted without impacting upon stand allocations plans associated with our normal schedule of flights. In the event of a mass diversion scenario, the ADM and TDM will activate Diversion Control in the CMC.
...
In the event of significant disruption at Manchester Airport and limited availability of parking stands, a decision may be taken not to accept inbound diversions. Requests from Manchester Airport airline customers to accept inbound diversions and extra flights will be considered on a case-by-case basis by the CMC, subject to the provision of a Ground Handling service."
ADM= Airfield Duty Manager
TDM = Terminal Duty Manager
CMC = Crisis Management Centre
"In order to protect our normal schedule of flights, Airfield Operations will closely monitor the operational capability of UK Airports and determine the number of parking stands available for diversionary aircraft. This assessment will be made at intervals of not less than 12 hours between the months of November and March inclusive.
The ADM will set an “inbound diversion cap” and notify ATC of any capacity limitations. The “cap” is intended to identify the number of inbound aircraft which can be accepted without impacting upon stand allocations plans associated with our normal schedule of flights. In the event of a mass diversion scenario, the ADM and TDM will activate Diversion Control in the CMC.
...
In the event of significant disruption at Manchester Airport and limited availability of parking stands, a decision may be taken not to accept inbound diversions. Requests from Manchester Airport airline customers to accept inbound diversions and extra flights will be considered on a case-by-case basis by the CMC, subject to the provision of a Ground Handling service."
ADM= Airfield Duty Manager
TDM = Terminal Duty Manager
CMC = Crisis Management Centre
On a lighter note the Daily Mail reported that some passengers on the Moscow flight had been tossed off, sorry tossed around like a paper plane!
Jets forced to send mayday emergencies because they were 'running out of fuel' over London | Mail Online
Jets forced to send mayday emergencies because they were 'running out of fuel' over London | Mail Online
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Just arrived at T3 travelling with a suitcase for a change, only to find that a baggage cart now has to be paid for.
what's that all about ? how petty to charge for a trolley. another slide down the scale of major world airports.
more like a supermarket experience. surely Manchester can do better !
what's that all about ? how petty to charge for a trolley. another slide down the scale of major world airports.
more like a supermarket experience. surely Manchester can do better !
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Ive seen plenty of airports charge for a trolley, including LAX, so MAN is not alone.
More to the point, when people are willing to pay less and less for flights, and airlines such as Ryanair willing to pay less to use the airport too, I wonder how people expect a business, to which MAN is, to make money (or in the philosophy of wanting to pay less do people expect an airport is purely a service to cater to their every whim, and not in fact there to make money for future regeneration, to which MAN is planning at this moment in time?)
More to the point, when people are willing to pay less and less for flights, and airlines such as Ryanair willing to pay less to use the airport too, I wonder how people expect a business, to which MAN is, to make money (or in the philosophy of wanting to pay less do people expect an airport is purely a service to cater to their every whim, and not in fact there to make money for future regeneration, to which MAN is planning at this moment in time?)
Join Date: Apr 2002
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The baggage cart only costs a pound.
Last week my taxi did not turn up so I had to drive to the airport and park in the short stay. Sat lunchtime until Sun evening cost a cool £72.
I only wanted to park, not buy the multi storey!
Last week my taxi did not turn up so I had to drive to the airport and park in the short stay. Sat lunchtime until Sun evening cost a cool £72.
I only wanted to park, not buy the multi storey!
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Mouser - shows a lack of class resorting to the F word (by implication), when criticising an event, issue or topic.
We are all grown up and I can swear like a trooper but do we need to see it here...?
We are all grown up and I can swear like a trooper but do we need to see it here...?
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http://www.mancunianmatters.co.uk/content/170267780-im-sun-lover-get-me-out-here-manchester-airport-enjoy-record-passengers-post
Shame that every new destination was mentioned except the most important - Riyadh !
Shame that every new destination was mentioned except the most important - Riyadh !
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Most important to whom exactly ? You seem very keen on a trip to Saudi but I'm not convinced the populous of GM at large will be heading there in a hurry. I doubt the revenue it generates for the airport will be anything other than a rounding error compared to Car parking and retail revenues generated by Ryanair and Easyjet
