MANCHESTER - 9
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Forgot about Cologne but still a difference of 11 flights.
The fact Jet2 has announced Vienna actually means Austrian are likely to join. Manchester seems to enjoy an unenviable history of capacity dumping to run competitors out of the Market, just look at Madrid!
The fact Jet2 has announced Vienna actually means Austrian are likely to join. Manchester seems to enjoy an unenviable history of capacity dumping to run competitors out of the Market, just look at Madrid!
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Madrid is a classic example, and in my view it's still now underserved with the 4 x weekly FR flights (5 x weekly for a month this summer).
I do wonder if MAN has rather neglected flybe for flights to some European destinations. The airline is seemingly focused on BHX, increasing capacity to MXP, HAJ and STR, and promising new routes from there. Flybe withdrawing from FRA and BRU from MAN in recent years was perhaps understandable, and while they offer several daily services to PAR and DUS, I do question whether the single flights to HAJ and MXP are likely to make the most of potential business traffic to those cities (I appreciate they have competition from FR to Bergamo).
STR, as has been mentioned, is now an obvious void on the MAN departure boards and cities such as Lyon with just a weekly flight from EZY are hardly over served. These destinations are also perhaps more suitable for, say, a 80 seat a/c rather than a/c with 130, 150 or 190 seats to fill.
I do wonder if MAN has rather neglected flybe for flights to some European destinations. The airline is seemingly focused on BHX, increasing capacity to MXP, HAJ and STR, and promising new routes from there. Flybe withdrawing from FRA and BRU from MAN in recent years was perhaps understandable, and while they offer several daily services to PAR and DUS, I do question whether the single flights to HAJ and MXP are likely to make the most of potential business traffic to those cities (I appreciate they have competition from FR to Bergamo).
STR, as has been mentioned, is now an obvious void on the MAN departure boards and cities such as Lyon with just a weekly flight from EZY are hardly over served. These destinations are also perhaps more suitable for, say, a 80 seat a/c rather than a/c with 130, 150 or 190 seats to fill.
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Re TAP
Manchester is in a highly tricky situation here.
Given the mix of both legacy and Lo Cost this type of scenario is always likely and we have trodden this path with Madrid.
The mix of traffic is both a blessing and a curse !
We could of course see it a major positive, 15 flights a week to a European Capital, we should rejoice .....if it can be made to work..... at least the timings are reasonable !
That said I would question MAGs pricing policy re Lisbon. It must be competitive if RYR feel they can muscle in !
Should MAG have a framework in place that by some convoluted formulae protects the incumbent that was bold enough to both start and indeed invest in the route in the first place ....?
Maybe they should but it also has to take account of frequency/timings etc
If a secondary airline is prepared to pay highly prohibitive premium charges then presumably the belief would be that the market is robust enough to support two carriers.
Maybe a grace period should also be in place ?
Clearly this will not work where there are two carriers on present routes which I guess would open it up to a challenge BUT going forward what are the options available ?
Whilst it sounds draconian in my view there has to be a framework that protects an airlines investment on what might be perceived as a "fragile" route.
It should also depend on frequency and timings of course, what is most valuable to the NWest market, Legacy or locost ?
Jet2 feature Vienna this year, fantastic news, but if "Austrian" then came along and proposed a double daily morning/evening I suspect most would prefer the latter !
What then, should JET2 cry foul , its a dilemma the suits need to sort quickly ?
Airport City appears to be steaming ahead, (based on the business pages of the MEN) those customers want double daily to European markets so we can ill afford to lose TAP.
Madrid should have been a lesson we cannot just have a free for all but squaring the circle will be a delicate balancing act !
Manchester is in a highly tricky situation here.
Given the mix of both legacy and Lo Cost this type of scenario is always likely and we have trodden this path with Madrid.
The mix of traffic is both a blessing and a curse !
We could of course see it a major positive, 15 flights a week to a European Capital, we should rejoice .....if it can be made to work..... at least the timings are reasonable !
That said I would question MAGs pricing policy re Lisbon. It must be competitive if RYR feel they can muscle in !
Should MAG have a framework in place that by some convoluted formulae protects the incumbent that was bold enough to both start and indeed invest in the route in the first place ....?
Maybe they should but it also has to take account of frequency/timings etc
If a secondary airline is prepared to pay highly prohibitive premium charges then presumably the belief would be that the market is robust enough to support two carriers.
Maybe a grace period should also be in place ?
Clearly this will not work where there are two carriers on present routes which I guess would open it up to a challenge BUT going forward what are the options available ?
Whilst it sounds draconian in my view there has to be a framework that protects an airlines investment on what might be perceived as a "fragile" route.
It should also depend on frequency and timings of course, what is most valuable to the NWest market, Legacy or locost ?
Jet2 feature Vienna this year, fantastic news, but if "Austrian" then came along and proposed a double daily morning/evening I suspect most would prefer the latter !
What then, should JET2 cry foul , its a dilemma the suits need to sort quickly ?
Airport City appears to be steaming ahead, (based on the business pages of the MEN) those customers want double daily to European markets so we can ill afford to lose TAP.
Madrid should have been a lesson we cannot just have a free for all but squaring the circle will be a delicate balancing act !
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re: TAP
Flying to/from Lisbon with TAP is hard work given the distances involved at the Lisbon end. Last June, coming back from Lisbon, we checked in then had to walk the full length of the terminal to the very last gate, then we were put on a (filthy) bus and driven right along all the gates we had walked past and across the airfield to the aircraft. Much further to walk then flying from Dubai, Heathrowe T3, Manchester etc. FR may well manage to do it better.
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Regretfully the feast/famine is the result of the EU (UK proposed !) fully open skys policy.
Nothing to be done anymore.
Airport fees and discount structures may not be recriminating either.
A whole range of traditional subsidies are also illegal.
Personally think the liberalisation has gone too far but its where we are.
Nothing to be done anymore.
Airport fees and discount structures may not be recriminating either.
A whole range of traditional subsidies are also illegal.
Personally think the liberalisation has gone too far but its where we are.
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I'm somewhat puzzled by OPODO re the new SAUDIA service.
If you input 28th Mar 2014, being the start date of the new service with a return date of the next 3-8 days and then also tick DIRECT, our service does not appear.
I assumed at first it's because I input the wrong return date choosing a date when they do not operate but I did tick +/- 1 days and I then also put in a wide sweep of dates.
Flights DO appear with them via LHR?
Does anybody have a glimmer how this works ?
If you input 28th Mar 2014, being the start date of the new service with a return date of the next 3-8 days and then also tick DIRECT, our service does not appear.
I assumed at first it's because I input the wrong return date choosing a date when they do not operate but I did tick +/- 1 days and I then also put in a wide sweep of dates.
Flights DO appear with them via LHR?
Does anybody have a glimmer how this works ?
Last edited by Bagso; 24th Jan 2014 at 11:10.
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yes apols Lax , the attached article in last weeks Gulf Traveller suggested
28th Mar as a start date, probably a misprint re start of summer schedules ?
Saudia Restarts Jeddah-Manchester Route » Gulf Business
---------------------
Interesting article on Manchester Airport City
Global Airport Cities 2013 - How Manchester Airport City captured the eye of China
One small point in the text
April 2013 and the official launch of the Manchester-China Forum was afforded the attendance of the UK Chancellor, George Osborne, himself. -
...hmmm, more to do with a predatory politician eyeing the potential for a bit of reflected glory methinks !
28th Mar as a start date, probably a misprint re start of summer schedules ?
Saudia Restarts Jeddah-Manchester Route » Gulf Business
---------------------
Interesting article on Manchester Airport City
Global Airport Cities 2013 - How Manchester Airport City captured the eye of China
One small point in the text
April 2013 and the official launch of the Manchester-China Forum was afforded the attendance of the UK Chancellor, George Osborne, himself. -
...hmmm, more to do with a predatory politician eyeing the potential for a bit of reflected glory methinks !
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MANFOD "I do wonder if MAN has rather neglected flybe for flights to some European destinations. The airline is seemingly focused on BHX, increasing capacity to MXP, HAJ and STR, and promising new routes from there"
I have nothing against MAN and fly from there at least a couple of times year. However, this is a sensible move by BE. There are far more un-served European routes up for grabs from BHX than from MAN. For example, although operated in the past, there is now no BHX-LIS yet MAN now has two carriers on this route......MAN has a host of routes announced for Summer '14 yet there are many on this thread who still don't think that's enough - all BHX has to show for route development in S14 is ATH and HRG. FR and now ZB seemingly have stagnated at BHX yet they grow at MAN and there is no LS base either. So I for one am happy that for once an airline has seen opportunity for growth at BHX above MAN!
I have nothing against MAN and fly from there at least a couple of times year. However, this is a sensible move by BE. There are far more un-served European routes up for grabs from BHX than from MAN. For example, although operated in the past, there is now no BHX-LIS yet MAN now has two carriers on this route......MAN has a host of routes announced for Summer '14 yet there are many on this thread who still don't think that's enough - all BHX has to show for route development in S14 is ATH and HRG. FR and now ZB seemingly have stagnated at BHX yet they grow at MAN and there is no LS base either. So I for one am happy that for once an airline has seen opportunity for growth at BHX above MAN!
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Gayfriendly,
I don't think anybody was suggesting BE grow MAN more or before BHX, it was merely commenting that they are growing there.
However, with flybe, I feel there are only really 3 routes that could work reasonably well for them and within their normal comfort zone, which are Stuttgart, Bordeaux and Lyon. If they were to go really crazy and outside the box then Dresden and possibly Bucharest on the E175.
Other than that, I struggle to see what other routes could be a great success for them, given any others could incur the wrath of the competition starting up too.
----------------------------------------
Mickeyman,
Yes, to an extent you are right that a cake can only be so big (however a sprinkling of growth can be applied as more people are given the opportunity to travel and also the general growth of the human race).
For example, MAN-XXX-HKG is known to be about 151,000 per anum, clearly more than enough passengers to support a direct route, but at what cost to existing fights, well, we will never know until passengers are give the option and make their choice......
I don't think anybody was suggesting BE grow MAN more or before BHX, it was merely commenting that they are growing there.
However, with flybe, I feel there are only really 3 routes that could work reasonably well for them and within their normal comfort zone, which are Stuttgart, Bordeaux and Lyon. If they were to go really crazy and outside the box then Dresden and possibly Bucharest on the E175.
Other than that, I struggle to see what other routes could be a great success for them, given any others could incur the wrath of the competition starting up too.
----------------------------------------
Mickeyman,
Yes, to an extent you are right that a cake can only be so big (however a sprinkling of growth can be applied as more people are given the opportunity to travel and also the general growth of the human race).
For example, MAN-XXX-HKG is known to be about 151,000 per anum, clearly more than enough passengers to support a direct route, but at what cost to existing fights, well, we will never know until passengers are give the option and make their choice......
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Gayfriendly, As LAX LHR has pointed out, I was not seeking to engage in a BHX v MAN debate at all.
I agree that there are more opportunities for flybe at BHX and it's good if they seize them. My point was that there are still gaps at MAN, although as LAX LHR quite rightly indicates, a limited number, for which smaller a/c may be suitable.
It's to flybe's credit that despite the recent rationalisation of bases and routes they are looking to expand where they feel they can make money.
I agree that there are more opportunities for flybe at BHX and it's good if they seize them. My point was that there are still gaps at MAN, although as LAX LHR quite rightly indicates, a limited number, for which smaller a/c may be suitable.
It's to flybe's credit that despite the recent rationalisation of bases and routes they are looking to expand where they feel they can make money.
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MAN has a host of routes announced for Summer '14 yet there are many on this thread who still don't think that's enough
Now, not in the spoilt 'we want more sense', but, in that the routes team should never be resting on their laurel's thinking their work is done for the summer.
While the new route and increase tally is pretty impressive for 2014, there are still some gaps that could be filled.
Realistically, I would hope that the following had a decent chance, so my personal wish list:
Miami: AA are strong at MAN, they have the BA joint venture, a good leisure route, offers good connections to the Caribbean and South America. If rumours are to be believed, then the route could be making an appearance this winter.
Madrid: Im still convinced Iberia could make some money on this route if they put a half arsed effort into it. To see the route regularly attracted 80-100 per day each way with NO advertising at all, just imagine if a full marketing campaign got behind it!
Hong Kong and Beijing: Has been discussed a lot lately so will not go into that again
Mumbai: Apparently BOM airport are trying to get Jet Airways to start the route, which, with the Etihad joint venture, they have said they will open. There is a sizable Indian community in the North West, and with one of the Middle Eastern giants on-side, could be done.
Bucharest: Nice city, slightly increased migrant flows, no route from the UK north of London, need I say more. Also, having served MAN before, TAROM know where MAN is, or, dare I say Ryanair as they are growing at MAN and now serve Bucharest from STN/DUB.
Kiev: BA seems to get a fairly steady flow of passengers on MAN-LHR-KBP, and those are the ones using BA. Who knows how big the market is. Maybe not open the route right now given the issues in Kiev right now, but, one for the future.
Phuket: By all accounts Thomson have done well on LGW-HKT and are looking into adding a weekly MAN flight, although I do not know how far along that is. There was a press release about it at the Thailand end but cannot find it now.
Anyway, Im sure people have their own list and hopefully it seems realistic given my reasons attached to each route rather than just reeling off a list with no explanation as to why a route would work.
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Madrid - you'd have to say logically there would be some argument for a BA/IB joint venture to serve MAN-MAD and the onwards South America services ex-Madrid and in my mind the logical solution would be a twice daily MAN-based Embraer jet which, one assumes, would be most cost effectively operated by
(Locally based) CityFlyer aircraft & crew..
Ukraine - back in the 1990s Kiev, L'vov and Ivano-Frankovsk were served by Ukraine International. Once things are more settled in Kiev, and given their recent rate of growth you'd have to think Ukraine International would sooner or later show some interest in coming to Manchester. There is, after all, still a reasonably sized Ukrainian diaspora in the North-West, a number of whom even travel to/from their "home" country via coach! If Ukraine Int'l (or Jet2?) don't figure this out sooner or later you've got to assume Wizz Air will for flights LPL-Kiev...
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Ukraine - back in the 1990s Kiev, L'vov and Ivano-Frankovsk were served by Ukraine International. Once things are more settled in Kiev, and given their recent rate of growth you'd have to think Ukraine International would sooner or later show some interest in coming to Manchester. There is, after all, still a reasonably sized Ukrainian diaspora in the North-West, a number of whom even travel to/from their "home" country via coach! If Ukraine Int'l (or Jet2?) don't figure this out sooner or later you've got to assume Wizz Air will for flights LPL-Kiev...
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MANFOD, LAX_LHR: Sorry I didn't mean my post to come across as a MAN vs BHX debate which as we all know is pointless!
I was trying to say (perhaps with too much feeling!) that BE have (hopefully) seized on the fact that there are a lot of gaps at BHX which they could have to themselves that perhaps don't exist at MAN. I'm not saying that BE won't grow at MAN, however with Jet2, FR and ZB all seemingly committed to growth at MAN, BE I think have better chances at BHX to launch previously untested routes (for them) as opposed to at MAN where most of their options (based on a/c operated) are already served. However, to add to the realistic possibilities mentioned of STR, BOD and LYS, maybe they might try LUX as well from MAN?
Be thankful that MAN management (to an outsider) appear to wholeheartedly support long haul, legacy, charter and Low cost ops! BHX could learn a trick or two off them! Be happy!!
I was trying to say (perhaps with too much feeling!) that BE have (hopefully) seized on the fact that there are a lot of gaps at BHX which they could have to themselves that perhaps don't exist at MAN. I'm not saying that BE won't grow at MAN, however with Jet2, FR and ZB all seemingly committed to growth at MAN, BE I think have better chances at BHX to launch previously untested routes (for them) as opposed to at MAN where most of their options (based on a/c operated) are already served. However, to add to the realistic possibilities mentioned of STR, BOD and LYS, maybe they might try LUX as well from MAN?
Be thankful that MAN management (to an outsider) appear to wholeheartedly support long haul, legacy, charter and Low cost ops! BHX could learn a trick or two off them! Be happy!!
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Loads of "untapped" opportunities on the RYR network alone !
Look at the Dublin route network.
Manchester is approximately the same in terms of size of demographics, population, inbound immigration opportunities, GDP , inbound tourism etc
Deduct off routes served by RYR AND other carries Ex MAN and there are still opportunities, if they work from DUB surely they would also work Ex Man ?
And what of other UK departure points ?
In Germany Berlin served from EMA but not MAN. Whilst LH serve MAN well and you can connect via say FRA there has to be scope for a direct flight.
In France La Rochelle, served from EMA but what about MAN a pretty meagre 2 weekly Flybe over a paltry 6 week season !
In Austria Salzburg is amazingly popular both as a ski and City in its own right and should be a year round 3/4 weekly not just a once weekly ski charter or IT destination.
Bratislava, Carcasonne, Dinard etc etc all currently served OR new routes from places like Edinburgh, Bristol, Bournemouth.
If they work from there then surely they would work Ex Manchester ?
I have deliberately excluded STN as clearly there is the some inbound market to London that distorts matters but there still some very obscure destination on their network that "might work" Bremen, Berne Linz ?
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The 'cake' is the same size syndrome. But is it ?
Still have people in our office (Chester) traveling from LGW to Dubai with not but a clue that Manchester exists ...and incredibly they drove !
Have said before it seems reasonable to me that the long haul market for Manchester is anywhere within 45mins to an hour North Of Birmingham over to South Yorkshire.
It's still a massive market but MAN is up against local high frequency connections to AMS from Humberside /LBA and now LHR in the latters case.
That said if Manchester could galvanise support as it did with Gil Thompson from MPs, media etc as thee exit/entry point for long haul travel in The North ....that could possibly make a significant difference to destinations and most crucially frequency.
Is that where EK score ? miss one and another comes along, miss that and there is still another.
Unfortunately for MAN those AMS/LHR connections and indeed local pride work against it !
The Yorkshire Post would i'm sure rather broadcast that they have a thrice daily connection to LHR than implore people to drive over to Manchester !
It is simply not seen as the major airport "For The North" as it was in the 80s.
That said I do take some solace when a South Yorkshire MP (Holmfirth) stands up and suggests his "local airport" is Manchester, and then states "why on earth did it not get a mention by the Davies Commission".
Yes I know the Commission (despite its title) was all bout LHR, BUT making a few sensible arguments supporting "Manchester For The North" and the resultant publicity that we actually have an airport "up here" would have been invaluable !
And so we come full circle, Manchester despite a substantial network simply does not have that public perception of a major gateway !
We do bloody well despite everything...but could do better !
PS yes forgot Berlin Ringwayman
Look at the Dublin route network.
Manchester is approximately the same in terms of size of demographics, population, inbound immigration opportunities, GDP , inbound tourism etc
Deduct off routes served by RYR AND other carries Ex MAN and there are still opportunities, if they work from DUB surely they would also work Ex Man ?
And what of other UK departure points ?
In Germany Berlin served from EMA but not MAN. Whilst LH serve MAN well and you can connect via say FRA there has to be scope for a direct flight.
In France La Rochelle, served from EMA but what about MAN a pretty meagre 2 weekly Flybe over a paltry 6 week season !
In Austria Salzburg is amazingly popular both as a ski and City in its own right and should be a year round 3/4 weekly not just a once weekly ski charter or IT destination.
Bratislava, Carcasonne, Dinard etc etc all currently served OR new routes from places like Edinburgh, Bristol, Bournemouth.
If they work from there then surely they would work Ex Manchester ?
I have deliberately excluded STN as clearly there is the some inbound market to London that distorts matters but there still some very obscure destination on their network that "might work" Bremen, Berne Linz ?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 'cake' is the same size syndrome. But is it ?
Still have people in our office (Chester) traveling from LGW to Dubai with not but a clue that Manchester exists ...and incredibly they drove !
Have said before it seems reasonable to me that the long haul market for Manchester is anywhere within 45mins to an hour North Of Birmingham over to South Yorkshire.
It's still a massive market but MAN is up against local high frequency connections to AMS from Humberside /LBA and now LHR in the latters case.
That said if Manchester could galvanise support as it did with Gil Thompson from MPs, media etc as thee exit/entry point for long haul travel in The North ....that could possibly make a significant difference to destinations and most crucially frequency.
Is that where EK score ? miss one and another comes along, miss that and there is still another.
Unfortunately for MAN those AMS/LHR connections and indeed local pride work against it !
The Yorkshire Post would i'm sure rather broadcast that they have a thrice daily connection to LHR than implore people to drive over to Manchester !
It is simply not seen as the major airport "For The North" as it was in the 80s.
That said I do take some solace when a South Yorkshire MP (Holmfirth) stands up and suggests his "local airport" is Manchester, and then states "why on earth did it not get a mention by the Davies Commission".
Yes I know the Commission (despite its title) was all bout LHR, BUT making a few sensible arguments supporting "Manchester For The North" and the resultant publicity that we actually have an airport "up here" would have been invaluable !
And so we come full circle, Manchester despite a substantial network simply does not have that public perception of a major gateway !
We do bloody well despite everything...but could do better !
PS yes forgot Berlin Ringwayman
Last edited by Bagso; 25th Jan 2014 at 09:33.
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Berlin is definitely unserved if we disregard the 5 weekly easyJet service; there's no guarantee that if Ryanair go on the route that easyJet would remain - we've already seen the effect of "legacy" v "low-cost" on the route; it appears to be a one-operator only route, not like your typical "bucket & spade" route which can handle many operators
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Bagso. What a coincidence. I somehow pressed the wrong key and managed to delete my draft comments, only to find that you had made the very point I was intending to make about the 'cake' not staying the same size. And I also referred to Gil Thompson who talked about the synergy of a route network whereby a wider range of destinations produced growth by attracting passengers who would not otherwise use Manchester and by creating greater transfer potential.
As to possible routes, Bremen is already served by FR 3 x weekly, but Bratislava might work even with Jet2 starting Vienna. Is Carcasonne still served from LPL?Incidentally, DUB is now showing 4 x daily by FR for dates in June, Aug. and Sep. I checked.
LAX LHR - some good routes there, and I would add Bangkok and either LAX or SFO, despite some concerns as to how it would impact on existing carriers to their hubs.
As to Berlin and Madrid, I think the latter could be ok with a legacy and an LCC. Berlin was apparently unsuccessful with LH, presumably because of Easyjet's presence on what is I imagine mainly a point-to-point operation.
EZY has a modest offering on Munich but LH will carry a reasonable proportion of transfer pax. As mainly O & D, Hamburg seems to work though, but LH's frequency has reduced from what it was at one time. I guess some cities can work with both legacy and LCC because of transfer potential but 189 seats on FR plus 150 plus on EZY would be overkill.
Wish Lists are always fun but I do believe some of those will happen over the next few years.
As to possible routes, Bremen is already served by FR 3 x weekly, but Bratislava might work even with Jet2 starting Vienna. Is Carcasonne still served from LPL?Incidentally, DUB is now showing 4 x daily by FR for dates in June, Aug. and Sep. I checked.
LAX LHR - some good routes there, and I would add Bangkok and either LAX or SFO, despite some concerns as to how it would impact on existing carriers to their hubs.
As to Berlin and Madrid, I think the latter could be ok with a legacy and an LCC. Berlin was apparently unsuccessful with LH, presumably because of Easyjet's presence on what is I imagine mainly a point-to-point operation.
EZY has a modest offering on Munich but LH will carry a reasonable proportion of transfer pax. As mainly O & D, Hamburg seems to work though, but LH's frequency has reduced from what it was at one time. I guess some cities can work with both legacy and LCC because of transfer potential but 189 seats on FR plus 150 plus on EZY would be overkill.
Wish Lists are always fun but I do believe some of those will happen over the next few years.
Last edited by MANFOD; 25th Jan 2014 at 10:39.
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Not wishing to appear pedantic here, but Holmfirth is in West Yorkshire and in terms of ease to get to Manchester would be his local airport. As with myself Leeds/Bradford may be closer as the crow flies but in terms of ease and time to get to Manchester is my local.
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Indeed, Sth Yorks is really close.
As you reach Dayne at FL60, the large city on your starboard side is Sheffield. It almost appears equidistant to Manchester at that point.
As you reach Dayne at FL60, the large city on your starboard side is Sheffield. It almost appears equidistant to Manchester at that point.