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DONCASTER SHEFFIELD

Old 20th Apr 2016, 13:23
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Don't be to sure about that when it comes to Flybe look what happened to at Bournemouth

Loads were just beginning to pick up and head in the right direction , yields and prices were certainly no different than the fares at Cardiff and Doncaster that are being charged at the moment so never ever assume when it comes to them ( Ok they did have an agenda with Southampton but Bournemouth paid the price )
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Old 20th Apr 2016, 13:31
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Rather than doom mongering isn't it worth waiting until the first set of CAA stats can be analysed?

Even then it shouldn't be over-analysed until services are bedded in.
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Old 21st Apr 2016, 18:13
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I think we can doom monger now! At least until they put the correct figures up...

https://www.caa.co.uk/uploadedFiles/...Statistics.pdf
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Old 21st Apr 2016, 19:57
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Originally Posted by nwoody2001


This is a big test for DSA in my mind, but also a great opportunity for DSA to prove/show what markets exists in what has been an under served/untested south Yorkshire market for years!
The South Yorkshire catchment has been tested for 11 years now and has involved 2 of the biggest and most successful airlines in the world.

Don't call distance catchment population a "red herring" as it is a scientific figure. Ignore it at your peril. Yes there are all kinds of methods to entice people to use your airport and they are not restricted to link roads and airline deals but you cannot ignore your distance catchment population. DSA's is quite small nestled between MAN, LBA, HUY and EMA. However successful or not DSA will become will have a direct impact on the 4 airports that surround it. For so many routes there simply is not enough passengers to be shared out. Sharing them out is the worst possible thing for the passenger as it leads to unsustainable, unreliable and infrequent service. Inefficient civil aviation strategy. This country needs to reduce the number of airports and make them more accessible and more functional and not have lots and lots fighting after the same passengers while losing money.

Last edited by LEEDS APPROACH; 21st Apr 2016 at 20:26. Reason: typo
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Old 21st Apr 2016, 20:34
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LA - that's how a free market works.

Are you advocating central planning of airline routes and airport capacity?
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Old 21st Apr 2016, 20:57
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
LA - that's how a free market works.

Are you advocating central planning of airline routes and airport capacity?
Not the airline routes at all - natural demand and competition will decide weather routes work or not. Get rid of the unsustainable deals and making the public pay to private companies for routes that have no chance of being sustainable (after 3 years is up).

With skies becoming ever more crowded it would be to everyone's benefit to have fewer more strategically placed airports that can work more efficiently. Put them in the right place and make them more efficient and better connected by road and rail.

Yes we need to thin down what we have and make what we have better.
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Old 21st Apr 2016, 21:00
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But you don't say how that will be done? Surely the only way is by state intervention i.e. legislation??
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Old 22nd Apr 2016, 08:42
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So this would mean scrapping the new LBA-NQY service which is being propped up by the Regional Connectivity Fund?
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Old 22nd Apr 2016, 09:40
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Originally Posted by egcntristar
So this would mean scrapping the new LBA-NQY service which is being propped up by the Regional Connectivity Fund?
I wouldn't scrap it - it just needs moving to a location within Yorkshire where the public wouldn't have to pay twice for it to make it work. That place is not LBA and it certainly isn't DSA.

As for it being a new route - nonsense - it's been done by Jet2 and AirSouthwest in recent years. Nobody is learning anything new about this route.

The regional connectivity fund (your tax) would be better off spent on a study to find out why so many airports are losing money. They did it for the railways.
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Old 22nd Apr 2016, 10:12
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So you're happy for monarch to leave LBA? They are only there because the airport subsidised them. And jet2 had a lot of support when they started out. I'm sure BA are getting help to be at LBA as are BMI ... It happens everywhere. Even MAN support new carriers.

The only route in yorkshire that is being helped with public funds is LBA-NQY. all the rest is private money and private companies can soend their money as they see fit, there is no need or grounds for regulation, apart from the fact 'leeds approach' wants more aircraft to spot at LBA which isn't exactly a sound commercial driver for making decisions.

LA you need to accept LBA is not the epicentre of the world and that DSA has just as much claim to its market as LBA does to it's own.

Competition is good, the flybe services at DSA are new and it's a huge commitment. It's a well known fact amongst professionals that new airline routes take upto 3 years to reach profitable maturity, so the stats that come out in month one are meaningless, plus as ever, no one knows the yield.
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Old 22nd Apr 2016, 10:16
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Don`t tell me I know Church Fenton
Newquay is one of the fastest growing UK markets as can be seen by the loads being carried out of MAN/BHX. Cornwall is very badly connected by train and if
anything goes wrong on the line cuts them off from the world, driving is a long
drive 7hrs from Leeds or 45 mins by plane and the cost is quite often less
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Old 22nd Apr 2016, 10:54
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Originally Posted by cumbrianboy
So you're happy for monarch to leave LBA? They are only there because the airport subsidised them. And jet2 had a lot of support when they started out. I'm sure BA are getting help to be at LBA as are BMI ... It happens everywhere. Even MAN support new carriers.

The only route in yorkshire that is being helped with public funds is LBA-NQY. all the rest is private money and private companies can soend their money as they see fit, there is no need or grounds for regulation, apart from the fact 'leeds approach' wants more aircraft to spot at LBA which isn't exactly a sound commercial driver for making decisions.

LA you need to accept LBA is not the epicentre of the world and that DSA has just as much claim to its market as LBA does to it's own.

Competition is good, the flybe services at DSA are new and it's a huge commitment. It's a well known fact amongst professionals that new airline routes take upto 3 years to reach profitable maturity, so the stats that come out in month one are meaningless, plus as ever, no one knows the yield.
YES - I want all routes in Yorkshire to be able to stand on their own two feet right from the off.

ok my friend. I have made it quite clear that LBA is completely unsuitable just as DSA is - so quite how I want to spot planes there I don't know. I would even suggest closing LBA in favour of DSA if DSA was in the ideal location - but it is not. It never will be. Competition at one well placed, accessible and full functioning airport is brilliant but dividing up a small catchment that already loses millions of passengers North, South and West will only lead to failure within Yorkshire. No other region pours money into the immediate neighbours pockets more than Yorkshire and Humberside. It's a very simple concept. I don't really enjoy arguing with plane spotters about this and the facts speak for themselves. There is a very good reason why EasyJet and Ryanair and Linksair failed at DSA and the BE service to Belfast stopped. Do stop going on about 'markets' too- it is population catchment, catchment wealth and propensity to fly that are important. I predict an intensifying 'bloodbath' for passengers in the next few years.
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Old 22nd Apr 2016, 11:17
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Gents I'd just like to point out that this particular round of debate was started by the Doom Monger in residence on the basis of what he'd 'heard' about one particular flight on one particular Monday morning. Now I can't be sure but I believe that particular route frequency was increased even before the launch date because of 'increased demand'.
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Old 22nd Apr 2016, 11:31
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Increased demand!! - moving 3 flights up the road where we can use some tax payers money. Ooo what shall we do? - "Increased demand" !

Berlin started by Jet2 at LBA (bigger distance catchment population) and where is it now?

Fight to the bottom.
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Old 22nd Apr 2016, 12:50
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Originally Posted by LEEDS APPROACH
Inefficient civil aviation strategy. This country needs to reduce the number of airports and make them more accessible and more functional and not have lots and lots fighting after the same passengers while losing money.
This may be true in an ideal world, but we don’t live in an ideal world. Our aviation infrastructure has developed in a particular way and we have to live with that and accept that the best we can do is fiddle around the edges of what we’ve already got. We’re way past the point of being able to implement a grand masterplan for air travel; to do so now would require government intervention on an unparalleled scale with huge associated costs. Simply won’t happen.
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Old 22nd Apr 2016, 14:20
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Look guys. Leeds Approach has made many arguments in the past for his agenda for closing all airports in Yorkshire and moving to one Yorkshire airport in the right place with the right facilities. That Airport is the former RAF Church Fenton. It is aparently in the best place and has good transport links. LBA has a short runway pointing in the wrong direction and is on a hill and has poor transport links. DSA doesn't have a NE/SW runway either and despite plenty of space and a good length runway is in the wrong place. Doncaster at least is a large city unlike Tadcaster. Leeds/ Bradford clearly don't have the catchment Tadcaster does (plus it's fantastic transport links to the rest of Yorkshire).
As someone who used to work at CF as far as I remember neither runway was longer than either LBA or DSA. It also suffers from Vale of York fog ( another of Leeds Approachs'arguments against LBA in particular) Whilst I agree CF could be expanded and developed who is going to pay?? Will the owners of LBA or DSA, neither of which are local authorities, shut their airports to allow LA's vision? Let's get back to the real world.LBA is struggling along with a little over 3 million pax a year and last I looked DSA was growing nicely. Neither are perfect but short of a billionaire coming in to throw money away on CF and buy out LBA and DSAs owners it is what we have. Get used to it!
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Old 22nd Apr 2016, 14:41
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When I worked at EZY as a cabin manager, we did a full summer season at DSA. We all loved the 1,2 or 3 night trips as the flights were so easy to work as they were never full. Biggest pax load I ever took was 119 to Faro in August 2010. Amsterdam was usually mid 40s and Prague 60s . Palma was around 90 pax. We knew DSA was making a hugh loss so we pulled out. FLYBE probably will to, it's Saad Hamnad trying to justify work for the E195 that are for sale but no airline wants to buy, so loadfactor and share price has plummeted .
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Old 22nd Apr 2016, 14:43
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Hooded - spot on, in a free market economy and without significant government intervention (and a shed load of money), make the best of what you've got.
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Old 28th Apr 2016, 03:10
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PAX data for March is still showing an 83% decline on the previous month.
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Old 28th Apr 2016, 14:35
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Pax 76115 up 56.4% on last year .TimmyW be happy
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