DONCASTER SHEFFIELD
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Well, you spoke to management, everything you were told must be true because airline management can always be trusted.
A tram to the airport? A tram? Who is going to pay for this? Peel?
A tram to the airport? A tram? Who is going to pay for this? Peel?
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Crowle United Kingdom
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God why the negative Sarcasm. ??. If you read any of the regional papers you would know that a key aim is to give Doncaster Airport a Station.
However the nearest line still means a he'll of a walk or a bus to the Terminal.
Imagine a family with cases etc etc having to walk all that way in bad weather?.
Also heavy rail is more expensive. adding
A new Tram train can run from Doncaster or Sheffield and then along to the new freight terminal where it would be simple enough to run Along side the new road link
A tram line to the front of the terminal.
It's been done at Edinburgh. And works well.
Why shoot it down as being so bloody out there and stupid when a cheaper option that can use both regular and tramlines.
And in so doing increase potentially incoming passengers to the airport who otherwise haven't the transport to get there or who could leave the car safely at home.
Plus it's greener than the manky old tin sheds that the local train operators use.
They alone would put passengers off.
A short spur tram line from the location of the head of the new rail freight terminal direct to the Airport.
And probably just two Tram sets.
Would be very much cheaper than A new build station planning. Plus altering paths on the current line where the old station was.
However the nearest line still means a he'll of a walk or a bus to the Terminal.
Imagine a family with cases etc etc having to walk all that way in bad weather?.
Also heavy rail is more expensive. adding
A new Tram train can run from Doncaster or Sheffield and then along to the new freight terminal where it would be simple enough to run Along side the new road link
A tram line to the front of the terminal.
It's been done at Edinburgh. And works well.
Why shoot it down as being so bloody out there and stupid when a cheaper option that can use both regular and tramlines.
And in so doing increase potentially incoming passengers to the airport who otherwise haven't the transport to get there or who could leave the car safely at home.
Plus it's greener than the manky old tin sheds that the local train operators use.
They alone would put passengers off.
A short spur tram line from the location of the head of the new rail freight terminal direct to the Airport.
And probably just two Tram sets.
Would be very much cheaper than A new build station planning. Plus altering paths on the current line where the old station was.
Join Date: Apr 2004
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The only problem with that is tram train are still subject to trial and it seems subject to delay.
The initial plans for tram train routes are already in place (In South Yorks and other parts of the country). Therefore it is quite unlikely there would be one in the short term.
Plus they will look to put them where there is a proven demand, and quoting Edinburgh as an example is probably not the best considering the amount of angst and debate there has been over that line.
The initial plans for tram train routes are already in place (In South Yorks and other parts of the country). Therefore it is quite unlikely there would be one in the short term.
Plus they will look to put them where there is a proven demand, and quoting Edinburgh as an example is probably not the best considering the amount of angst and debate there has been over that line.
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No I used Edinburgh not as an example of the project as a whole.
But the physical finished product at the actual airport. I'm fully aware of the shocking costs.
But in terms of a building job. And how little space but done to a high standard. .and forgetting the politics of that line. it has given a boost to the Airport.
Respectfully your not understanding the idea. it's nothing like the Scale of Edinburgh. I don't know the full distance from Either the Freight rail head or and other perhaps disused line in the vicinity. I thought there was one.
Or it can branch off from the current Finningley line into the Airport.
Trams can run along the airport roads to the Terminal.
And that would be a short line. And I thought I'd read about a tram train for Rotherham that is both diesel and Electric.
If not the only main expense would be Wiring the line From Doncaster Central.
But ITS NOT impossible. south Yorkshire are building the Rotherham link
There is nothing to stop peel and Network rail
Any Big business from funding it. remember we MUST hit much lower CO2 by 2020. A Tram would be green.
Plus by the time the line was done the trains would already be in service they are meant to be due next year.
Besides who knows. Doncaster might build a tramline from French gate to Finningley Via the Airport and with stops at the new Business park. That alone is a string motivator to supply the new business parks.
It would attract probably currently southern based firms. As they can reach Doncaster from London already quickly.
Couple that with A team it tram train to this huge new redevelopment. making it a limited stop so it was an express tram to the Airport and Business Park. would benefit the airport and the area.
For very little outlay.
As for Edinburgh. it's just the neat terminus they built would look great and work well at Dsa!.
It couldn't fail but to be a winner.
As it expands the catchment far and wide. Sheffield Selby even York. Lincoln and so on.
All of which can't get there easily now.
But the physical finished product at the actual airport. I'm fully aware of the shocking costs.
But in terms of a building job. And how little space but done to a high standard. .and forgetting the politics of that line. it has given a boost to the Airport.
Respectfully your not understanding the idea. it's nothing like the Scale of Edinburgh. I don't know the full distance from Either the Freight rail head or and other perhaps disused line in the vicinity. I thought there was one.
Or it can branch off from the current Finningley line into the Airport.
Trams can run along the airport roads to the Terminal.
And that would be a short line. And I thought I'd read about a tram train for Rotherham that is both diesel and Electric.
If not the only main expense would be Wiring the line From Doncaster Central.
But ITS NOT impossible. south Yorkshire are building the Rotherham link
There is nothing to stop peel and Network rail
Any Big business from funding it. remember we MUST hit much lower CO2 by 2020. A Tram would be green.
Plus by the time the line was done the trains would already be in service they are meant to be due next year.
Besides who knows. Doncaster might build a tramline from French gate to Finningley Via the Airport and with stops at the new Business park. That alone is a string motivator to supply the new business parks.
It would attract probably currently southern based firms. As they can reach Doncaster from London already quickly.
Couple that with A team it tram train to this huge new redevelopment. making it a limited stop so it was an express tram to the Airport and Business Park. would benefit the airport and the area.
For very little outlay.
As for Edinburgh. it's just the neat terminus they built would look great and work well at Dsa!.
It couldn't fail but to be a winner.
As it expands the catchment far and wide. Sheffield Selby even York. Lincoln and so on.
All of which can't get there easily now.
Last time I checked, Doncaster airport's passenger flights fall almost entirely into 2 categories
-taking local residents on holiday to a beach
-making it easier for migrant labour living locally to visit family in central/eastern Europe.
There appears to be almost nobody at Doncaster airport flying for business and wearing a suit. DSA seem unable to support traffic to major non holiday cities in western Europe; not even a daily service to Paris or Amsterdam.
There is already a direct bus from the centre of Doncaster adjacent to the train station, direct to the airport. Doncaster has an excellent train service to/from the region. Is there really a commercial need for a significant infrastructure project, when increasing the existing local bus frequency might suffice instead ? Aberdeen, Belfast, Bristol, Cardiff, East Midlands, Leeds and Glasgow seem to manage much higher passenger numbers while relying on buses for public transport.
-taking local residents on holiday to a beach
-making it easier for migrant labour living locally to visit family in central/eastern Europe.
There appears to be almost nobody at Doncaster airport flying for business and wearing a suit. DSA seem unable to support traffic to major non holiday cities in western Europe; not even a daily service to Paris or Amsterdam.
There is already a direct bus from the centre of Doncaster adjacent to the train station, direct to the airport. Doncaster has an excellent train service to/from the region. Is there really a commercial need for a significant infrastructure project, when increasing the existing local bus frequency might suffice instead ? Aberdeen, Belfast, Bristol, Cardiff, East Midlands, Leeds and Glasgow seem to manage much higher passenger numbers while relying on buses for public transport.
I seem to remember a feasibility study by some organisation (MAG perhaps?) which found that purpose built rail connections are not viable unless an airport is handling c. 5 - 10mppa. There are clearly exceptions to that rule, such as NCL (metro), but for the most part bus services suffice when there is enough business. I use the 757 between Leeds railway station and LBA sometimes when I need to be at the airport, and it is by no means an express service. I reckon if it was non stop it wouldn't be viable. I also reckon that the type of passenger using DSA would rather take private hire cab or drive, due to checked in luggage.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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There is already a direct bus from the centre of Doncaster adjacent to the train station, direct to the airport.
...and that should suffice. People can talk about "going green," but green still has to make money these days and I'm really not convinced DSA has any hope ever of attaining the critical mass to justify a rail link or tram line.
When a Donny resident can get a direct train to Manchester Airport without any changes and have the luxury of choice from the plethora of routes from there, how anyone can justify the cost of a proposed rail link to DSA, with it's handful of low cost scheduled and bucket and spade flights; it baffles me.
Anyone not wanting the 1hr 50 train journey to MAN will surely settle for LBA or pop down the M1 to EMA.
This isn't Donny-bashing; it's cold reality.
To those who still insist a train station is the answer, I just say look north to MME and see how theirs brought passengers to the airport in their, err, handful.
To those who still insist a train station is the answer, I just say look north to MME and see how theirs brought passengers to the airport in their, err, handful.
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Tram or Tram/Train are not low cost options, building tram lines are not cheap for example if I recall correctly the latest Manchester Metrolink line to the Trafford Centre is £350 million.
Plus the line has to show it will pay for itself, are you convinced that this line would carry sufficient numbers to justify the cost?
Plus the line has to show it will pay for itself, are you convinced that this line would carry sufficient numbers to justify the cost?
Join Date: May 2006
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I'm most definitely a DSA supporter but fa2fi identifies a key feature of some of Onyx's posts!
The only way ANY station serving the airport could be justified right now is if it was part of an integrated transport plan serving not just the airport but the local Finningley community in the same way as those at Adwick and Bentley do. But there isn't the residential demand for it that I know of it. And even if there was I doubt placing it near the airport would make it handy for those residents! Anything benefitting the airport must benefit the local Doncaster community first and foremost. The FARRS does that and so does the Business Park near the M18. An airport station wouldn't.
The only way ANY station serving the airport could be justified right now is if it was part of an integrated transport plan serving not just the airport but the local Finningley community in the same way as those at Adwick and Bentley do. But there isn't the residential demand for it that I know of it. And even if there was I doubt placing it near the airport would make it handy for those residents! Anything benefitting the airport must benefit the local Doncaster community first and foremost. The FARRS does that and so does the Business Park near the M18. An airport station wouldn't.
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Last time I checked, Doncaster airport's passenger flights fall almost entirely into 2 categories
-taking local residents on holiday to a beach
-making it easier for migrant labour living locally to visit family in central/eastern Europe.
-taking local residents on holiday to a beach
-making it easier for migrant labour living locally to visit family in central/eastern Europe.
As these are currently the only type of services on offer, it is inevitable that they will fall into these two categories.
EI-BUD
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I don't think doncaster is needed as there are other airports very close by on this tiny island. Too much division of a region just helps competing regions as certain routes struggle to get established. I think MAN airport is quite happy that doncaster divides the Yorkshire region. Controversial but true. Prices of flights would be realistic then and not loss makers and hence airports would make a regulated profit and not keep going out of business. We are a tiny island and there are too many airports. Rationalization would only help the UK aviation industry.
Join Date: May 2006
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I disagree and I guess you are saying this based on the assumption that LBA would inevitably be one of the airports that survived rationalisation. Air traffic will continue to grow, either quickly or slowly. Rationalize to say eight to ten airports and it'll be the bigger ones with either the surroundings to expand or the clout to expand that'll be the survivors. And whether you like it or not the airports that went to wall would still, in total probably add up to millions of pax all having to take to the motorways mostly to make extra road journeys to fly. People only think airports. They don't see the strain 'rationalisation' will put on the rest of the transport infrastructure. Not to mention the damage that will be done by the 'extra' runways that will then be even more urgently needed. Let's face it our road networks are already creaking under the strain and rail??? 50 years ago we 'rationalised' the railways. 50 years on we are reaping the harvest. We have to work out a way to keep as many airports as we can, because in 20 or 30 years they may be the only thing that stops Heathrow and Gatwick demolishing every village in London and the South East .... Like you said ... tiny island ....
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LBA has no room to grow and is loss making. It is owned by an investment company. It is on a hill has a runway at 90 degress to the prevailing wind, suffers from low cloud/fog. It is only a matter of time before it becomes a housing estate or retail park, all flights will be then operating out of the massive new Yorkshire airport at DSA. The good folk of Yorkshire would much rather travel there than take the painful journey across the pennines to MAN.
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Just to be clear, in case my point was missed, I was assuming that DSA would go in the rationalisation but a lot of others would be in danger too, especially those with no room to expand etc etc. The extra traffic and pax and associated road traffic would have to go somewhere ... and it wouldn't be too pleasant for anyone ..
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Yes LBA is rubbish for all those reasons but it does sit next to a very big conurbation. With hard work it could grow to a 5/6 million pax airport and so I don't think it will ever become a housing estate.
Doncaster is completely in the wrong position. People from Sheffield can get to EMA very easily and people from West Yorks will always prefer to use the airport on the doorstep. That is why finningley will never be able to pull enough pax. This is why it simply cannot maintain business routes. Take away the very cheap holiday flights and say EMA or LBA arranges a deal with wizz for example that undercuts Doncaster and then what would happen? Too many airports in too small an area all going after the same passengers. It just cannot work in the medium / long term.
Doncaster is completely in the wrong position. People from Sheffield can get to EMA very easily and people from West Yorks will always prefer to use the airport on the doorstep. That is why finningley will never be able to pull enough pax. This is why it simply cannot maintain business routes. Take away the very cheap holiday flights and say EMA or LBA arranges a deal with wizz for example that undercuts Doncaster and then what would happen? Too many airports in too small an area all going after the same passengers. It just cannot work in the medium / long term.
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Leeds Approach. My post was supposed to be tongue in cheek. LBA will survive purely because of the reasons you point out. Investment has been too slow for too long. BUT what if DSA makesJet 2 an offer they can't refuse.....
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Hooded, I just want them both to stay open as I'm moving back to Leeds in a few months and if I can't fly from there would rather trek to Doncaster than that awful M62 journey! That said I agree with you about LBA, (sorry for being reasonable! It is sometimes missing on this thread!
) and I think the possibility of DSA making Jet2 an offer they can't refuse, while always possible is somewhat remote. First of all it depends on how serious Peel are, or become, about actually making DSA an airport business. Second, in my opinion at least it depends on whether Jet2 ever want to fly larger heavier aircraft far enough afield to warrant needing or requiring the extra take off distance. Third, there would, I suspect have to be some very good reason why Jet2 could not do this from MAN.
) and I think the possibility of DSA making Jet2 an offer they can't refuse, while always possible is somewhat remote. First of all it depends on how serious Peel are, or become, about actually making DSA an airport business. Second, in my opinion at least it depends on whether Jet2 ever want to fly larger heavier aircraft far enough afield to warrant needing or requiring the extra take off distance. Third, there would, I suspect have to be some very good reason why Jet2 could not do this from MAN.