New Thames Airport for London
Paxing All Over The World
silverstrata
Call me a doom monger but I would say that we have already lost control of that hub. It maybe that the actual numbers still show us on top but that is a lag.
Our facilities are behind many others and still falling. We all know that ANY solution will take a decade and by that time the numbers will show that we lost it between 2000 and 2010. I would go further and say that we had lost it before 2000 but that is by the by.
We retain a fair amount of trade for two reasons. Firstly, due to speaking English and the rest of Europe is improving their English all the time.
The other factor is the City of London and, for the moment, they are holding on but if we lose them (for whatever reason) there is no point in building even one more remote stand at Heathrow!
We are lucky that Schipol has not run away with the prize as KLM is now held back by AF but others will catch up and the English language alone will not save us.
This is about having a world-standard interlining hub. Once you control the interlining hub of Northern Europe, all transport and trade heads in your direction.
Our facilities are behind many others and still falling. We all know that ANY solution will take a decade and by that time the numbers will show that we lost it between 2000 and 2010. I would go further and say that we had lost it before 2000 but that is by the by.
We retain a fair amount of trade for two reasons. Firstly, due to speaking English and the rest of Europe is improving their English all the time.
The other factor is the City of London and, for the moment, they are holding on but if we lose them (for whatever reason) there is no point in building even one more remote stand at Heathrow!
We are lucky that Schipol has not run away with the prize as KLM is now held back by AF but others will catch up and the English language alone will not save us.
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Silver, if (and it's a big if) your analysis is correct, the replacement airport has to be accessible to the whole country, not stuck in the middle of nowhere.
In other words it needs to be north or west of LHR and not east. Forget the nonsense about high speed links and only "20 minutes" from London.
However, there are many reasons why a replacement airport is fraught with difficulty and there is no need to mention them again here.
As for Boris, he has to be an MP before he can replace Call-Me-Dave as Conservative leader should the latter fall under the proverbial "37 bus".
He has promised to serve a full term as mayor which takes us past the next election. If he's lying about that, could he not be lying about "dying in a ditch", etc. as well?
In other words it needs to be north or west of LHR and not east. Forget the nonsense about high speed links and only "20 minutes" from London.
However, there are many reasons why a replacement airport is fraught with difficulty and there is no need to mention them again here.
As for Boris, he has to be an MP before he can replace Call-Me-Dave as Conservative leader should the latter fall under the proverbial "37 bus".
He has promised to serve a full term as mayor which takes us past the next election. If he's lying about that, could he not be lying about "dying in a ditch", etc. as well?
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Silver, if (and it's a big if) your analysis is correct, the replacement airport has to be accessible to the whole country, not stuck in the middle of nowhere.
In other words it needs to be north or west of LHR and not east.
In other words it needs to be north or west of LHR and not east.
You are forgetting that Silver Boris still needs to serve London, so it has to be close to London. The obvious position for Silver-Boris would be NW London, but that is simply no longer possible, both in terms of cost, land availability and noise disruption.
The only possibility in today's overcrowded environment is the Thames estuary. But remember, the new airport has to be well-connected, but not just to the UK but also to NW Europe. This is why the Thames location is an asset, because it can then link directly to Amsterdam, Brussels and Paris (by TGV).
Regards linking to the rest of the UK - if Cross-Rail and HS2 do not link up with the Chunnel line and also with the Silver-Boris in the Thames Estuary, then someone needs shooting.
Seriously - these are perhaps the biggest infrastructure projects of this century, that will effect the lives of the next five or more generations, and if some stupid planner get this wrong, the entire nation will suffer for centuries afterwards. These decisions are that important. We cannot have HS2 terminating 2km from the Chunnel, and the Chunnel terminating 2km from Cross-rail, and anyone planning such a national debacle need to face the full consequences of their stupidity.
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Quote: "You are forgetting that Silver Boris still needs to serve London, so it has to be close to London."
Am forgetting nothing. Silver Island is not "close to London" (that's a description for LCY surely!). Silver Island would be further from London than Narita is from Tokyo and Incheon is from Seoul.
"But remember, the new airport has to be well-connected, but not just to the UK but also to NW Europe. This is why the Thames location is an asset, because it can then link directly to Amsterdam, Brussels and Paris (by TGV)."
You're talking about an integrated transport system. In other words, you're having a laugh! ICN has just got a rail link to Seoul after 11 years. BKK's link to Bangkok took about 3 years. Even the award-winning SIN took almost 20 years to be linked to the metro, so don't hold your breath!
By the way, who's paying for all of this? In the case of the above-mentioned new airports, it was the government. Despite Boris's bluster, is our's going to cough up for Silver Island?
Quote: "Regards linking to the rest of the UK - if Cross-Rail and HS2 do not link up with the Chunnel line and also with the Silver-Boris in the Thames Estuary, then someone needs shooting.
Seriously - these are perhaps the biggest infrastructure projects of this century, that will effect the lives of the next five or more generations, and if some stupid planner get this wrong, the entire nation will suffer for centuries afterwards. These decisions are that important. We cannot have HS2 terminating 2km from the Chunnel, and the Chunnel terminating 2km from Cross-rail, and anyone planning such a national debacle need to face the full consequences of their stupidity."
Get the firing squads ready, that is exactly what is proposed. In London, HS2 will be at Euston, HS1 is at St Pancras, and Crossrail will be about 1 mi. south, a tube ride away.
HS1 Stratford is 1 mi. from Stratford interchange, HS2 Elmdon/NEC will be 1 mi. from the existing Elmdon/NEC station.
Who knows whether HS2 will stop at Ringway or where the Manchester terminal will be, but probably not Piccadilly.
Does the use/proposed use of out of the way destinations ring any bells?
High speed rail is/will be the "Ryanair of the railways"
Quote: "The obvious position for Silver-Boris would be NW London, but that is simply no longer possible, both in terms of cost, land availability and noise disruption."
Well north or west of London certainly, not in the estuary. It cannot be In NW London obviously, but must not be so far out that it looks good to FR. The Roskill Commission (1971) suggested Cublington, Bucks, as a site for London's third airport, but that is way out.
There's a perfectly good site in Middlesex that's just 20 miles west of London and is adjacant to an existing large airport. This site already has a railway adjacant, is favoured by that airport's owner, the airlines, passengers, cargo operators, business and industry, and many who live work and make a good living in that area because of it.
Am forgetting nothing. Silver Island is not "close to London" (that's a description for LCY surely!). Silver Island would be further from London than Narita is from Tokyo and Incheon is from Seoul.
"But remember, the new airport has to be well-connected, but not just to the UK but also to NW Europe. This is why the Thames location is an asset, because it can then link directly to Amsterdam, Brussels and Paris (by TGV)."
You're talking about an integrated transport system. In other words, you're having a laugh! ICN has just got a rail link to Seoul after 11 years. BKK's link to Bangkok took about 3 years. Even the award-winning SIN took almost 20 years to be linked to the metro, so don't hold your breath!
By the way, who's paying for all of this? In the case of the above-mentioned new airports, it was the government. Despite Boris's bluster, is our's going to cough up for Silver Island?
Quote: "Regards linking to the rest of the UK - if Cross-Rail and HS2 do not link up with the Chunnel line and also with the Silver-Boris in the Thames Estuary, then someone needs shooting.
Seriously - these are perhaps the biggest infrastructure projects of this century, that will effect the lives of the next five or more generations, and if some stupid planner get this wrong, the entire nation will suffer for centuries afterwards. These decisions are that important. We cannot have HS2 terminating 2km from the Chunnel, and the Chunnel terminating 2km from Cross-rail, and anyone planning such a national debacle need to face the full consequences of their stupidity."
Get the firing squads ready, that is exactly what is proposed. In London, HS2 will be at Euston, HS1 is at St Pancras, and Crossrail will be about 1 mi. south, a tube ride away.
HS1 Stratford is 1 mi. from Stratford interchange, HS2 Elmdon/NEC will be 1 mi. from the existing Elmdon/NEC station.
Who knows whether HS2 will stop at Ringway or where the Manchester terminal will be, but probably not Piccadilly.
Does the use/proposed use of out of the way destinations ring any bells?
High speed rail is/will be the "Ryanair of the railways"
Quote: "The obvious position for Silver-Boris would be NW London, but that is simply no longer possible, both in terms of cost, land availability and noise disruption."
Well north or west of London certainly, not in the estuary. It cannot be In NW London obviously, but must not be so far out that it looks good to FR. The Roskill Commission (1971) suggested Cublington, Bucks, as a site for London's third airport, but that is way out.
There's a perfectly good site in Middlesex that's just 20 miles west of London and is adjacant to an existing large airport. This site already has a railway adjacant, is favoured by that airport's owner, the airlines, passengers, cargo operators, business and industry, and many who live work and make a good living in that area because of it.
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 3rd Jun 2012 at 12:53.
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Can we please stop calling it Silver Island? Or Silver-Boris? It's taking ego to whole new levels.
Where is this? If you mean Heathrow, can you account for how you have calculated this (massive) number? Everyone within the M25 can see an aircraft either inbound or out of Heathrow so I imagine you have extrapolated from that?
and 10 million people who live under the flight path hate it, it's a real dump, it can't be expanded, it's an accident waiting to happen and getting to it is a nightmare
Last edited by Skipness One Echo; 3rd Jun 2012 at 21:55.
funnily enough a lot of people who live outside that definition still see themselves as in the Greater LHR area........
The contour for 50 Lden equates to "moderate annoyance". I haven't seen this modelled for Heathrow, but it will typically be 2-3 times the area of the 55 Lden contour, though of course the relative size of the population affected won't necessarily be exactly in the same ratio.
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"severe annoyance".
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Yes, I think we can safely assume that those who don't care aren't counted among the severely annoyed.
I think you're wrong, I suspect "severe annoyance" is simply a certain decibel level. Anyone know?
As I previously said:
The 55 Lden contour corresponds to the World Health Organisation's definition of "severe annoyance".
so you are perfectly correct.
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Fairdeal
Get the firing squads ready, that is exactly what is proposed. In London, HS2 will be at Euston, HS1 is at St Pancras, and Crossrail will be about 1 mi. south, a tube ride away.
HS1 Stratford is 1 mi. from Stratford interchange, HS2 Elmdon/NEC will be 1 mi. from the existing Elmdon/NEC station.
High speed rail is/will be the "Ryanair of the railways"
Get the firing squads ready, that is exactly what is proposed. In London, HS2 will be at Euston, HS1 is at St Pancras, and Crossrail will be about 1 mi. south, a tube ride away.
HS1 Stratford is 1 mi. from Stratford interchange, HS2 Elmdon/NEC will be 1 mi. from the existing Elmdon/NEC station.
High speed rail is/will be the "Ryanair of the railways"
Did anyone in the DofT think it would be a good idea if the M6 stopped one mile short of the M1? Or the M40 stop one mile short of the M25?
Why is the UK suddenly innundated with numbskulls in government and the civil service? Is this the result of 15 years of 'enrichment', that we now get Indian civil planning?
And the TGV is far from being the Ryan Air of rail in France. It may not go to the city center, which is a bit of a pain, but there is always a bus into town. Its a good service, and I have been surprised to find it always nearly full.
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Quote: "Did anyone in the DofT think it would be a good idea if the M6 stopped one mile short of the M1? Or the M40 stop one mile short of the M25?"
In fairness, the M3 and M4 do stop well short of London (probably because they were built too late!). They also failed to complete a Paris-style "peripheral" highway that the motorways could link into!
However, bits of it were started and can be seen around Shepherds Bush, the elevated "westway" in Notting Hill, Trinity Road underpass in Wandsworth, and the north and south approaches of the Blackwall Tunnel.
That illustrates the lack of joined-up thinking so well!
Doubtless there are countless other examples up and down the country.
Quote: "Why is the UK suddenly innundated with numbskulls in government and the civil service? Is this the result of 15 years of 'enrichment', that we now get Indian civil planning?"
That's a very good question, silverstrata!
Quote: "And the TGV is far from being the Ryan Air of rail in France."
In fairness the "FR of the railways" comment referred specifically to the daft HS2 proposals as presently constituted, and the nonsense at Stratford on the Eurostar/HS1 (Javelin).
Quote: "It may not go to the city center, which is a bit of a pain, but there is always a bus into town."
At Paris-Nord, at least, the Eurostar and TGV are at the same station!
At London, they won't be. At Stratford, the Eurostar/HS1 (Javelin) and the rest of the interchange are a mile apart.
The "bus into town" concept defeats the purpose of HS rail. Time saved on travelling is lost faffing around before and after. It then becomes no different to traipsing out to the airport!
Quote: "Its a good service, and I have been surprised to find it always nearly full."
Not surprised the TGV trains are full. Unlike HS1, AFAIK, there isn't a premium payment for riding high speed trains in France, and train fares are lower anyway.
They can't get it right on the roads and railways, are we surprised they've messed it up on airports policy as well?!
In fairness, the M3 and M4 do stop well short of London (probably because they were built too late!). They also failed to complete a Paris-style "peripheral" highway that the motorways could link into!
However, bits of it were started and can be seen around Shepherds Bush, the elevated "westway" in Notting Hill, Trinity Road underpass in Wandsworth, and the north and south approaches of the Blackwall Tunnel.
That illustrates the lack of joined-up thinking so well!
Doubtless there are countless other examples up and down the country.
Quote: "Why is the UK suddenly innundated with numbskulls in government and the civil service? Is this the result of 15 years of 'enrichment', that we now get Indian civil planning?"
That's a very good question, silverstrata!
Quote: "And the TGV is far from being the Ryan Air of rail in France."
In fairness the "FR of the railways" comment referred specifically to the daft HS2 proposals as presently constituted, and the nonsense at Stratford on the Eurostar/HS1 (Javelin).
Quote: "It may not go to the city center, which is a bit of a pain, but there is always a bus into town."
At Paris-Nord, at least, the Eurostar and TGV are at the same station!
At London, they won't be. At Stratford, the Eurostar/HS1 (Javelin) and the rest of the interchange are a mile apart.
The "bus into town" concept defeats the purpose of HS rail. Time saved on travelling is lost faffing around before and after. It then becomes no different to traipsing out to the airport!
Quote: "Its a good service, and I have been surprised to find it always nearly full."
Not surprised the TGV trains are full. Unlike HS1, AFAIK, there isn't a premium payment for riding high speed trains in France, and train fares are lower anyway.
They can't get it right on the roads and railways, are we surprised they've messed it up on airports policy as well?!
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 8th Jun 2012 at 23:26.
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In Japan you pay a premium every time you want to go on an express train - be that the Shinkansen - or a rural express. Doesn't deter anyone as the journey time is so much shorter.
The only way to interchange HS2 with HS1 at St Pancras would be to tunnel HS2 deep down below the underground lines at presumably prohibitive cost, as the area is so congested. Aklternatively they could bulldoze a large residential area.
It took Tokyo years and years to build a connection in central Tokyo between the Shinkansen coming from the north to those going to the south and even now all the trains still just terminate in Tokyo. Most people travelling down HS2 won't want to go any further than London.
The only way you can really do joined-up transport policy is to create a brand new capital somewhere...
The only way to interchange HS2 with HS1 at St Pancras would be to tunnel HS2 deep down below the underground lines at presumably prohibitive cost, as the area is so congested. Aklternatively they could bulldoze a large residential area.
It took Tokyo years and years to build a connection in central Tokyo between the Shinkansen coming from the north to those going to the south and even now all the trains still just terminate in Tokyo. Most people travelling down HS2 won't want to go any further than London.
The only way you can really do joined-up transport policy is to create a brand new capital somewhere...
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Quote: "In Japan you pay a premium every time you want to go on an express train - be that the Shinkansen - or a rural express. Doesn't deter anyone as the journey time is so much shorter."
Good point, glad you mention Japan, it's country with much transport choice. Complimenting the Shinkansen is a huge network of domestic flights.
For example, there are about 50 flights/day (many on widebodied planes) between Tokyo's 2 airports and Osaka's 3 airports, in addition to a bullet train several times/hour.
Tokyo-Haneda is almost as busy as Heathrow and is still almost entirely domestic, there are only a handful of international flights.
Quote: "The only way to interchange HS2 with HS1 at St Pancras would be to tunnel HS2 deep down below the underground lines at presumably prohibitive cost, as the area is so congested. Aklternatively they could bulldoze a large residential area."
Or run both HS1, HS2 and the Eurostar out of London St Pancras, moving the Midland Mainline underneath with the Thameslink, or to London-Euston if neccessary. Public transport has to be convenient to get people off the roads!
Quote: "It took Tokyo years and years to build a connection in central Tokyo between the Shinkansen coming from the north to those going to the south and even now all the trains still just terminate in Tokyo.
Tokyo has just one massive station for both Shinkansen and conventional rail, with a metro interchange underneath.
Quote: "Most people travelling down HS2 won't want to go any further than London."
Maybe, maybe not, you know this how? Sounds like pure conjecture...
Quote: "The only way you can really do joined-up transport policy is to create a brand new capital somewhere... "
Forget that idea, it's hard enough to get just one runway built!
Good point, glad you mention Japan, it's country with much transport choice. Complimenting the Shinkansen is a huge network of domestic flights.
For example, there are about 50 flights/day (many on widebodied planes) between Tokyo's 2 airports and Osaka's 3 airports, in addition to a bullet train several times/hour.
Tokyo-Haneda is almost as busy as Heathrow and is still almost entirely domestic, there are only a handful of international flights.
Quote: "The only way to interchange HS2 with HS1 at St Pancras would be to tunnel HS2 deep down below the underground lines at presumably prohibitive cost, as the area is so congested. Aklternatively they could bulldoze a large residential area."
Or run both HS1, HS2 and the Eurostar out of London St Pancras, moving the Midland Mainline underneath with the Thameslink, or to London-Euston if neccessary. Public transport has to be convenient to get people off the roads!
Quote: "It took Tokyo years and years to build a connection in central Tokyo between the Shinkansen coming from the north to those going to the south and even now all the trains still just terminate in Tokyo.
Tokyo has just one massive station for both Shinkansen and conventional rail, with a metro interchange underneath.
Quote: "Most people travelling down HS2 won't want to go any further than London."
Maybe, maybe not, you know this how? Sounds like pure conjecture...
Quote: "The only way you can really do joined-up transport policy is to create a brand new capital somewhere... "
Forget that idea, it's hard enough to get just one runway built!
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 9th Jun 2012 at 22:22.