Scilly Isles Route
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Another challenge - the lower minima of the fixed-wing VFR-operation: The S61 often still operated when Skybus operations already had to be suspended. So much bigger impact of the weather in the future if there is only Skybus or the ferry.
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Regarding weather minima ... in the old days ISC had a minimum RVR (RUNWAY Visual Range) of 1,500m yet with a runway of a mere 600m (ish) 1,500m was barely practicle.
Back in the Brymon days EXT had a habit of attracting fog on the approaches yet the Brymon Twotter(s) would be overhead looking down on a crystal clear airfield ... correct me if I am mistaken but I'm of the impression that fixed wing and rotary wing have the same minima's to adhere to.
And let it not be forgotten that it was 1983 that BA Helicopters lost an inbound to ISC with a significant loss of lives, Brymon Twotters hadn't yet managed to get in to ISC that day, a chopper tried it and the rest is history ... R.I.P.
Back in the Brymon days EXT had a habit of attracting fog on the approaches yet the Brymon Twotter(s) would be overhead looking down on a crystal clear airfield ... correct me if I am mistaken but I'm of the impression that fixed wing and rotary wing have the same minima's to adhere to.
And let it not be forgotten that it was 1983 that BA Helicopters lost an inbound to ISC with a significant loss of lives, Brymon Twotters hadn't yet managed to get in to ISC that day, a chopper tried it and the rest is history ... R.I.P.
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The big difference between Skybus and BIH is the base on the mainland, Penzance is FAR less prone to fog problems than Lands End (which is a positive fog magnet)
Going back to that report I posted, nav aids are something that was already being investigated as part of the airport upgrades, I think GPS based nav (with EGNOS) is one possibility.
re: the crash. I still remember that day very vividly. The call came through to the coastguards as we were heading back up from the quay on St Agnes after having met the launch, at that time they thought it was at the back of Gugh, we also thought my aunt was the stewardess that day.
The fog was so thick that, when waiting for the launch, we couldn't see Gugh from the quay, that is possibly less than 100m.
I believe a significant number of changes were made after that day.
Going back to that report I posted, nav aids are something that was already being investigated as part of the airport upgrades, I think GPS based nav (with EGNOS) is one possibility.
re: the crash. I still remember that day very vividly. The call came through to the coastguards as we were heading back up from the quay on St Agnes after having met the launch, at that time they thought it was at the back of Gugh, we also thought my aunt was the stewardess that day.
The fog was so thick that, when waiting for the launch, we couldn't see Gugh from the quay, that is possibly less than 100m.
I believe a significant number of changes were made after that day.
Last edited by Dooby; 3rd Aug 2012 at 14:34.
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Conservative-Independent led Cornwall Council said it was "extremely disappointed" by the decision to end the service, which has offered as many as 40 flights a day and is thought to be used by up to 130,000 people a year.
The St. Just Land's End Airport will be difficult to use for such a type of operation. The Dash-8 don't like grass fields and the longest runway (16/34) there is only 792 metres long. An in addition to that I might also say the airport is in the middle of nowhere. The purpose of these flights are to connect the Scilly Isles to the rest of the world, and then flying mainly to Newquay. This is 110 km/68 miles flight and a corresponding flight distance made by Widerĝe with a Dash-8-100 give a scheduled flight time of 25 minutes. In other words a Dash-8-100 can fly a return ISC-NQY in 90 minutes included turnarounds at both ends. From this only one Dash-8-100 is needed to cover these flight if the eight round trips would have been the case all year around. But I suspect we are mare talking 10-12 daily round trips in the Summer and 5-6 daily round trips during the Winter, then a second Dash-8-100 would be needed to cover the peak season. With two Dash-8s the Scillians could also fly further afield than Newquay to airports like Exeter (to link up with flybe) or to Bristol and in addition have spare capacity enough to cover for maintenance that can be performed during the Winter months.
In other words two Dash-8-100 can replace the existing fleet used to serve the Scilly Isles - 5x S-61N at BIH and 3x Twin Otter and 3x BN Islander at Skybus. The only problem now to solve is to do something to the airport at St Marys since today's runway can't be used for Dash-8-100s.
Here we go - a new runway turned more in accordance to windrose at ISC can be built. The runway above is 1,000 metre long and 30 metre wide (same measurements at the larger Norwegian STOLports). I know about the seven Scillonian entrance graves at Porth Hellick Down, and I have tried to avoid them all. The inlet to the Porth Hellick don't need to suffer since it is possible to build a concret bridge construction over the inlet for the runway and safety zones in stead of dam construction that had blocked off the whole bay from the sea. Existing terminal facilities can be use, the apron may have to be extended to make place for the larger Dash-8 and existing runways can be converted to taxiways. The length of the new runway (06/24 ish) to the east of the crossing with the existing 14/32 runway exceeds 600 metre, and this part can be used during closure of the old runway and link up the two ends of the new runway. This means the drainage problems the old runway has can be taken care of in the same process without interrupting the normal traffic.
The new runway will cost a lot of money, and I guess the Right Honourable MP from Brentwood and Ongar, Eric Pickles (Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government) will be helpful with funding this regional development that may lead to not needing to classify the flights and ferry operation a PSO (Public service obligation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). To make the new runway even more reliable for the Scillian population, EP may even take a closer look at this Widerĝe shoots world's first approved precision GPS approach
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I think that kind of route/service could work, but I really don't think we could realistically get a 1000m runway in no matter how you align it. I reckon you *may* be able to get a 700m one in, preferably aligned to the prevailing wind direction, but failing that perhaps along the line of the old 18/36 runway that is only allowed to be used currently as a heli take off/landing zone or even the current part grass runway 09/27. both are closer to the prevailing wind direction than 14/32 as I understand it.
*EDIT*
Actually, I reckon you might be able to get 800m along 09/27 without going into the sea or into farmland (although you would have a LOT of earth works to level the two ends.
*EDIT*
Actually, I reckon you might be able to get 800m along 09/27 without going into the sea or into farmland (although you would have a LOT of earth works to level the two ends.
Last edited by Dooby; 3rd Aug 2012 at 15:46.
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I can't see any runway extension happening at St.Marys, it's an area of natural, outstanding beauty and I don't think i'd be allowed by the dutchy - what would be the real point anyway, the current aircraft can already operate out on full loads and the local council wouldn't allow another fixed wing operator in!
The idea behind the resurfacing of the cross runway, all asphalt instead of half grass was to allow the use of it for Twin Otters in dodgy weather conditions, currently with it half grassed it's a bit tight in anything under than perfect weather.
The idea behind the resurfacing of the cross runway, all asphalt instead of half grass was to allow the use of it for Twin Otters in dodgy weather conditions, currently with it half grassed it's a bit tight in anything under than perfect weather.
Last edited by PlymouthPixie; 3rd Aug 2012 at 16:02.
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Where do you get the idea the council wouldn't allow another operator in, given that we have just lost one - and anyway, this isn't just about another operator, its about the remaining operator being able to utilise larger aircraft.
I agree that getting a runway extension would be tricky given the AONB status etc, but there are already being questions asked as to whether the lost capacity can be picked up by the Twin Otters, even if more were bought in.
I agree that getting a runway extension would be tricky given the AONB status etc, but there are already being questions asked as to whether the lost capacity can be picked up by the Twin Otters, even if more were bought in.
Last edited by Dooby; 3rd Aug 2012 at 16:09.
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@LN-KGL
To the other points you made, PSO - indeed, this is possibly the one silver lining in all this, that the route now has a single company operating the only transport services (the Scillonian Ferry and Skybus having the same parent company).
DGPS/LAAS approach - indeed, I remember discussing this with someone a few years back, unfortunately I believe it is still very expensive to have the kit installed on the airfield. An EGNOS based approach seems far more likely [http://www.essp-sas.eu/downloads/bws...erney_lpv.pdf]
To the other points you made, PSO - indeed, this is possibly the one silver lining in all this, that the route now has a single company operating the only transport services (the Scillonian Ferry and Skybus having the same parent company).
DGPS/LAAS approach - indeed, I remember discussing this with someone a few years back, unfortunately I believe it is still very expensive to have the kit installed on the airfield. An EGNOS based approach seems far more likely [http://www.essp-sas.eu/downloads/bws...erney_lpv.pdf]
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Just one point, the Isles of Scilly doesn't have a government, it has a local council, granted it is a unitary authority, but they still aren't quite a government (however much some of them may think they are 
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Dooby, a maximum 600 metre long runway is feasible for 09/27. The reasons for this is the regulatory requirements for safety zones at the ends of a runway (inhabited area to the west and terrain drop to the east).
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ah, ok, that makes sense, although I was thinking some kind of elevation of the terrain drop off at the east end might be a possibility.
*edit* actually, extending 09/27 to 600m and making the whole length a hard surface would still help with one of the problems facing the Twin Otters, which is the times they cant use the other runway due to crosswinds (but then, they probably wouldn't need 600m).
*edit* actually, extending 09/27 to 600m and making the whole length a hard surface would still help with one of the problems facing the Twin Otters, which is the times they cant use the other runway due to crosswinds (but then, they probably wouldn't need 600m).
Last edited by Dooby; 3rd Aug 2012 at 18:15.
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Regarding another, a replacement, operator coming in to operate the routes.
Well Tresco is about to lose ALL air services and with only a 1,188ft grass runway it can only be served by rotary wing but with PZE about to close and St Just owned/operated by Skybus then, and unless Skybus are about to go rotary wing, then the nearest mainland licensed aerodromes are Perranporth, NQY and Bodmin for any rotary wing to operate from/to, additional flying times = higher and non competitive fares.
At least St. Mary's can take fixed wing Twotters/Islanders so perhaps there is opportunity for an alternative fixed wing operator to fill the gap but, again, the nearest mainland licensed aerodromes are as already mentioned, Skybus aren't about to allow a competitor to use their Lands End aerodrome.
Well Tresco is about to lose ALL air services and with only a 1,188ft grass runway it can only be served by rotary wing but with PZE about to close and St Just owned/operated by Skybus then, and unless Skybus are about to go rotary wing, then the nearest mainland licensed aerodromes are Perranporth, NQY and Bodmin for any rotary wing to operate from/to, additional flying times = higher and non competitive fares.
At least St. Mary's can take fixed wing Twotters/Islanders so perhaps there is opportunity for an alternative fixed wing operator to fill the gap but, again, the nearest mainland licensed aerodromes are as already mentioned, Skybus aren't about to allow a competitor to use their Lands End aerodrome.
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Not to confuse Tesco with Tresco but you have got to love to spin from Tesco
BBC News - Tesco heliport challenge 'was to safeguard Penzance service'
cs
BBC News - Tesco heliport challenge 'was to safeguard Penzance service'
cs
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It's all up to the around 2,200 Scillonians what they want - to stay in the past or to move forward. I don't know what was decided in the Coucil of the Isles of Scilly meeting on the 21 June (the minutes isn't published yet) with the regards of what to do with ISC - resurfacing or do nothing and hope they will pass the upcoming friction test in September. Clearly something has to be done with the airport if Isles of Scilly don't want to slip further in to the past.
The Isles of Scilly Steamship Company Ltd will become the sole provider of all transport between the mainland and the Scilly Isles with BIH is closing down their helicopter flights. Fair enough around 500 of the 1,000 share holders are living on the Scilly Isles, but the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company Ltd is a commercial company and they will not necessarily act in the best interest of the all Scillonians. I suspect this will be a case for Competion Commision, and they may end up with a decision to end the monopoly by breaking up company in two - one for air travel and one for maritime transport. This will give a more healthy competition hauling people to and fro the islands. An other alternative will be to make the ISC-mainland a PSO route with carriers having to bid for tenders lasting three of four years. Here is an example of an "Invitation to Tender" that the Norwegian Ministry of Transport and Communications have out now (still 10 days left to the bid end): http://www.regjeringen.no/Upload/SD/...osjune2012.pdf
But a tender doesn't solve the main problem - an airport that can only handle old and small aircraft types with rather high crew share (1 to 8 for the Islander and 2 to 19 for the Twin Otter). The average age of Skybus Twin Otters are 32 years and the Islanders are 22 years (the 2 Romanian build BN2Bs are the youngest), but the design of both aircraft types started almost 50 years ago. The Dash-8 design is 20 years younger. Also the twice as high cruise speed of the Dash-8 compared with both the Islander and the Twin Otter is a plus, not that important if an updated St Just is used, but if the mainland activity is moved to Newquay the difference will be significant.
The Isles of Scilly Steamship Company Ltd will become the sole provider of all transport between the mainland and the Scilly Isles with BIH is closing down their helicopter flights. Fair enough around 500 of the 1,000 share holders are living on the Scilly Isles, but the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company Ltd is a commercial company and they will not necessarily act in the best interest of the all Scillonians. I suspect this will be a case for Competion Commision, and they may end up with a decision to end the monopoly by breaking up company in two - one for air travel and one for maritime transport. This will give a more healthy competition hauling people to and fro the islands. An other alternative will be to make the ISC-mainland a PSO route with carriers having to bid for tenders lasting three of four years. Here is an example of an "Invitation to Tender" that the Norwegian Ministry of Transport and Communications have out now (still 10 days left to the bid end): http://www.regjeringen.no/Upload/SD/...osjune2012.pdf
But a tender doesn't solve the main problem - an airport that can only handle old and small aircraft types with rather high crew share (1 to 8 for the Islander and 2 to 19 for the Twin Otter). The average age of Skybus Twin Otters are 32 years and the Islanders are 22 years (the 2 Romanian build BN2Bs are the youngest), but the design of both aircraft types started almost 50 years ago. The Dash-8 design is 20 years younger. Also the twice as high cruise speed of the Dash-8 compared with both the Islander and the Twin Otter is a plus, not that important if an updated St Just is used, but if the mainland activity is moved to Newquay the difference will be significant.
Last edited by LN-KGL; 4th Aug 2012 at 21:21.
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The question is: Would it be really commercial or would it be a form of extortion with their monopoly? To find out if the latter is true will be a task for the Competion Commision, their mission is to prevent the abuse of firms' dominant market positions (Article 102 TFEU). You may have noticed that they decided against BAA - LGW had to be sold off, EDI likewise and now is STN up for grabs. MAG plc is one of the bidders for STN - maybe they sold Humberside Airport to Eastern Group to prevent getting in the Competion Commision search lights?
Last edited by LN-KGL; 4th Aug 2012 at 23:29.
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LN-KGL,
But with a geriatric 36 (ish) seater aircraft an operator isn't going to be in a position to offer the frequency of services and load factors, particularly during winters, will be p1ss poor.
But with a geriatric 36 (ish) seater aircraft an operator isn't going to be in a position to offer the frequency of services and load factors, particularly during winters, will be p1ss poor.
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I have found this article which simply makes me laugh. Since when Tesco is interested in transport and the well being of the Isles of Scilly residents?
BBC News - Tesco heliport challenge 'was to safeguard Penzance service' >
BBC News - Tesco heliport challenge 'was to safeguard Penzance service' >
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I am trying to go the the Scillys early sept.
I looked at the air fare on friday and found that they had gone down. There were £47.5 and £52.5 one way fares.
I was about to book the next day and found that they had all gone up...£80 one way for a 15 mn plane ride from Lands End. That is an absolute joke!
There is a decrease in the nb of people going there.... it is not surprising!
B&B are the same. Expect to pay £80 to £90 for a tiny room.
Hotels are also extortionate. There is a 2* where there is just space to move around the bed for £160 a night!
I know the season is short but the prices are so outrageous that The locals are killing the business.
And £190 return on BIH does help either. The article mentions that the money BIH would make selling the piece of land would enable them to buy new equipment......maybe a 1/4 of a helicopter!
For those who know where the heliport is there are already 2 hypermarkets there, Do they need a 3rd one?
And why did Skybus/Lands End refused BIH to restart the business from Lands End.
Everyone seems to be shooting in their own foot.
I looked at the air fare on friday and found that they had gone down. There were £47.5 and £52.5 one way fares.
I was about to book the next day and found that they had all gone up...£80 one way for a 15 mn plane ride from Lands End. That is an absolute joke!
There is a decrease in the nb of people going there.... it is not surprising!
B&B are the same. Expect to pay £80 to £90 for a tiny room.
Hotels are also extortionate. There is a 2* where there is just space to move around the bed for £160 a night!
I know the season is short but the prices are so outrageous that The locals are killing the business.
And £190 return on BIH does help either. The article mentions that the money BIH would make selling the piece of land would enable them to buy new equipment......maybe a 1/4 of a helicopter!
For those who know where the heliport is there are already 2 hypermarkets there, Do they need a 3rd one?
And why did Skybus/Lands End refused BIH to restart the business from Lands End.
Everyone seems to be shooting in their own foot.