BIRMINGHAM - 5
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Madrid
Not sure about the Manchester Madrid struggling, as I understand it the aircraft change was to be from the CRJ1000 to CRJ900 which is a difference of ten passengers. I have not heard of the CRJ2 50 seater on the MAN route.
I also believe that there have been decent loads, especially in the last few weeks although I know that should be expected during the festive period but it is early days and as mentioned previously there is supposed to have been a lack of advertising.
Turkish at BHX performed poorly until this summer when there was what seemed to be an advertising blitz and loads since have gone-up so things can change quickly although in this case it was about the same time Mahan Air finished, which might have helped TK.
Pete
I also believe that there have been decent loads, especially in the last few weeks although I know that should be expected during the festive period but it is early days and as mentioned previously there is supposed to have been a lack of advertising.
Turkish at BHX performed poorly until this summer when there was what seemed to be an advertising blitz and loads since have gone-up so things can change quickly although in this case it was about the same time Mahan Air finished, which might have helped TK.
Pete
Last edited by OltonPete; 8th Jan 2012 at 20:08. Reason: spelling
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I thought the IB was going to a CRJ-900 not a 200 which is a loss of 10 seats
for 6 days and a CRJ-1000 1 day, the CRJ-200 are not popular and on a flight
of that duration would not stand a chance due to being too small with limited baggage space and not comfortable
Ian
for 6 days and a CRJ-1000 1 day, the CRJ-200 are not popular and on a flight
of that duration would not stand a chance due to being too small with limited baggage space and not comfortable
Ian
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Its a never ending cycle and you have to have to be brave and commit.
BHX has been very brave in this go ahead and once its built its banked forever.
Be proud of your airport as you seem to be looking for every negative possible.
Nigel
BHX has been very brave in this go ahead and once its built its banked forever.
Be proud of your airport as you seem to be looking for every negative possible.
Nigel
As I said in my earlier post, I will be very happy to be proved wrong on this one. I am not bashing the airport or mgmt, I am just doubtful about the business case for the extension.
My reference to planning was just a response to the suggestion that the market may pick up - as the airport must make a profit (- AWM input), this investment needs to start paying for itself from day 1.
Without re-igniting the MAN v BHX debate, people should remember that the geography is different - the 'leakage' from MAN to LON is more likely to be by air, hence MAN is still used anyway, whereas BHX to LON leakage can only be by road or rail. However, I do think it is fair to look at MAN's LH routes, and then ask which ones might realistically work at BHX.
If a long term route goes due to an airline re-jigging itself, fair enough, but how many BHX lh routes have been flash in the pan - despite lh usually being given longer to prove itself?
What is the current max aircraft size to reach SFB or MCO without tech stop? Can the Dreamliner make it?
Re; Europe - yes, this is looking better than last year, but there still are some huge gaps. I look forward to seeing these filled.
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Hi Jaibird,
Yes the 787 can easily make Orlando,and it was also hoped that it could have got off our 8,500 ft runway to China one day.
However the tech boys at BHX had it bang on, and a 787 at sea level to China, and similar distances requires 9,400ft. We are at 330ft about that so add a bit more.So the extension was necessary even for for the 787 to such places.
I understand your point of view on the planning ,and as I say wish it was that easy, hopefully you can see it is not now.
The CEO himself says the case for the extension was marginal as you say,but he was willing to have a go and saved millions in having a slightly shorter one,as the bridge project is now dropped.
Whats done is now done and I don't see the point of rubbishing it now.Sure BHX know what they are doing..well lets hope they do !
Nigel
Yes the 787 can easily make Orlando,and it was also hoped that it could have got off our 8,500 ft runway to China one day.
However the tech boys at BHX had it bang on, and a 787 at sea level to China, and similar distances requires 9,400ft. We are at 330ft about that so add a bit more.So the extension was necessary even for for the 787 to such places.
I understand your point of view on the planning ,and as I say wish it was that easy, hopefully you can see it is not now.
The CEO himself says the case for the extension was marginal as you say,but he was willing to have a go and saved millions in having a slightly shorter one,as the bridge project is now dropped.
Whats done is now done and I don't see the point of rubbishing it now.Sure BHX know what they are doing..well lets hope they do !
Nigel
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Nigel,
I stand by my view that I don't think it will pay for itself, but I appreciate having a good debate about the routes at last, the thread has touched on this before but not really gone into detail. Just because the runway extension makes a route technically viable does not mean (a) that the route will come once it is built, or that (b) having the route will pay for the work done.
However, you are right in that we should applaud risk takers - after all, the AWM input is minimal, and relative to some of the projects proposed for London, this is pocket change.
If you prove me wrong and we're both still in pprune in 2022, I will gladly buy you a pint in a Beijing bar of your choice
Whats done is now done and I don't see the point of rubbishing it now.Sure BHX know what they are doing..well lets hope they do !
However, you are right in that we should applaud risk takers - after all, the AWM input is minimal, and relative to some of the projects proposed for London, this is pocket change.
If you prove me wrong and we're both still in pprune in 2022, I will gladly buy you a pint in a Beijing bar of your choice
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However the tech boys at BHX had it bang on, and a 787 at sea level to China, and similar distances requires 9,400ft. We are at 330ft about that so add a bit more.So the extension was necessary even for for the 787 to such places.
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Nigel Osborne -
You have been a very naughty boy! The figure you quote as the population of the West Midlands is the number for the region as a whole, not that of the West Midlands Conurbation. It is estimated that only 43% of the West Midlands total population are domiciled within the conurbation.
The 2001 census puts the West Midlands Conurbation population at 2,284,093. I would prefer to produce the 2011 numbers but I am unable to find them at this point ... have the census results been published yet? In any case, in spite of the 2001 figure being somewhat outdated, I'm pretty confident that the number has not increased by around 60%! Indeed, indications point to a modest reduction.
Therefore, the figure you have quoted as West Midlands population should rightfully be compared with the region known as the North West. For a meaningful comparison with the Greater Manchester Conurbation you must use the West Midlands Conurbation total.
As for your other data, you are again economical with the truth. We all know that Manchester is a geographically small city due to its late development with the cotton industry wildly overspilling its historic boundaries. Most people economically dependent on Manchester occupy addresses in the nine surrounding boroughs which make up the conurbation, which is the true single entity. Only conurbation-level comparisons offer us meaningful insights into economic comparisons between Birmingham and Manchester. Using the data as you do may raise a belly laugh (the effect you were hoping for?), but it will not paint a relevant picture and all readers here know that. We're more intelligent than you give us credit for! Wouldn't it just be better to compare the conurbations like-for-like, or would you rather score cheap points? The real figures are not embarrassing for WM Birmingham, you know. But they are pretty neck-and-neck with Greater Manchester. That is the true picture ... this evergreen debate exists because we all know this to be so.
Having said all that, the spectacle of your 'willy-waving' posting with all those childish clapping smilies comes across as pretty unedifying anyway. Please try harder!
Regards. SHED.
You have been a very naughty boy! The figure you quote as the population of the West Midlands is the number for the region as a whole, not that of the West Midlands Conurbation. It is estimated that only 43% of the West Midlands total population are domiciled within the conurbation.
The 2001 census puts the West Midlands Conurbation population at 2,284,093. I would prefer to produce the 2011 numbers but I am unable to find them at this point ... have the census results been published yet? In any case, in spite of the 2001 figure being somewhat outdated, I'm pretty confident that the number has not increased by around 60%! Indeed, indications point to a modest reduction.
Therefore, the figure you have quoted as West Midlands population should rightfully be compared with the region known as the North West. For a meaningful comparison with the Greater Manchester Conurbation you must use the West Midlands Conurbation total.
As for your other data, you are again economical with the truth. We all know that Manchester is a geographically small city due to its late development with the cotton industry wildly overspilling its historic boundaries. Most people economically dependent on Manchester occupy addresses in the nine surrounding boroughs which make up the conurbation, which is the true single entity. Only conurbation-level comparisons offer us meaningful insights into economic comparisons between Birmingham and Manchester. Using the data as you do may raise a belly laugh (the effect you were hoping for?), but it will not paint a relevant picture and all readers here know that. We're more intelligent than you give us credit for! Wouldn't it just be better to compare the conurbations like-for-like, or would you rather score cheap points? The real figures are not embarrassing for WM Birmingham, you know. But they are pretty neck-and-neck with Greater Manchester. That is the true picture ... this evergreen debate exists because we all know this to be so.
Having said all that, the spectacle of your 'willy-waving' posting with all those childish clapping smilies comes across as pretty unedifying anyway. Please try harder!
Regards. SHED.
Last edited by Shed-on-a-Pole; 9th Jan 2012 at 01:42.
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Any truth in the rumour that menzies are starting up at bhx and have taken over the flybe contract from swissport wef april ??......if true will shake up things this summer.
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There is also a secondry appeal for the runway lenght that know one has touched upon. With an increase in TODA and LDA this has an effect on aircraft performance not only for long haul but also for all other aircraft types. Increased lenght reduced power for take off there fore reduced maintenance etc etc....
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Any truth in the rumour that menzies are starting up at bhx and have taken over the flybe contract from swissport wef april ??......if true will shake up things this summer.
Good luck to the BHX Swissport guys!
Shed.
What we don't need is another bout of willy waving and rubbishing "yours" or "my" airport (my local is actually EMA so I consider myself something of a referee).
As I wrote a couple of days ago I doubt that any airport that has built new runways or extended existing ones beyond what is needed for euorpean operations have actually made a real profit on the initial investment (not even your beloved Manchester).
BHX has taken a pretty big business risk, let us wish them all the best - as I do the Manchester taxpayers who have more of a vested interest in getting a payback than do those living around truly privatised airports such as EMA and BHX.
What we don't need is another bout of willy waving and rubbishing "yours" or "my" airport (my local is actually EMA so I consider myself something of a referee).
As I wrote a couple of days ago I doubt that any airport that has built new runways or extended existing ones beyond what is needed for euorpean operations have actually made a real profit on the initial investment (not even your beloved Manchester).
BHX has taken a pretty big business risk, let us wish them all the best - as I do the Manchester taxpayers who have more of a vested interest in getting a payback than do those living around truly privatised airports such as EMA and BHX.
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xtypeman,
Yes good point, suppose also if taking off from 33 end once an extensions built,most planes will be higher over houses with a bit less noise for those beneath.
Nigel
Yes good point, suppose also if taking off from 33 end once an extensions built,most planes will be higher over houses with a bit less noise for those beneath.
Nigel
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BHX has taken a pretty big business risk, let us wish them all the best - as I do the Manchester taxpayers who have more of a vested interest in getting a payback than do those living around truly privatised airports such as EMA and BHX.
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ATNotts -
My posting does not rubbish Birmingham or its airport in any way. It simply points out that inapplicable and incorrect stats have been posted by another contributor and corrects these. My posting even points out that the correct figures are not an embarrassment for Birmingham, and that population figures for both conurbations really are neck-and-neck (hence the recurring debate). I put it to you that an episode of "willy waving" would require me to promote one conurbation (presumably my "beloved" one?) and denigrate the other. My posting clearly avoids doing this as you and all readers here can readily check.
So what exactly has upset you, Ref???
SHED.
My posting does not rubbish Birmingham or its airport in any way. It simply points out that inapplicable and incorrect stats have been posted by another contributor and corrects these. My posting even points out that the correct figures are not an embarrassment for Birmingham, and that population figures for both conurbations really are neck-and-neck (hence the recurring debate). I put it to you that an episode of "willy waving" would require me to promote one conurbation (presumably my "beloved" one?) and denigrate the other. My posting clearly avoids doing this as you and all readers here can readily check.
So what exactly has upset you, Ref???
SHED.
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There is another stat out there that only something like 13% of pax using MAN head to / from the city centre, and I would guess a similar figure for BHX.
I really don't think the city is relevant. What matters is what govt bods call the 'propensity to fly' - ie the market for in and outbound traffic. Too much business is leaked from BHX and EMA to the south, and to a lesser extent the north.
BHX can only do so much about this, due to its proximity to London, however, London airports are running out of space. The airport hope to capitalise on this, but if there is a lesson here as a warning, is it not the dead duck that is MSE?
London people and visitors will want to use London airports. I could go on about LHR v Thames v LGW, but I think all of you refs will send me off for that - needless to say, the demand for London airspace will resolve itself somehow.
Which takes us back to Nigel's quote:
It is, of course, easier to be an armchair commentator than the people who actually have to do the route chasing, but big businesses are seconf only to big government at getting things wrong.
If anything, my biggest disappointment is not with airport management, who can only go so far with their enthusiasm for route development. Is BHX not one of the largest, and certainly longest established of BE's bases? Great things were promised with both the Q400 and the E-jets, and what have we got. Virtually all the European destinations mentioned above would surely be ideal for the E175 on whatever frequency could be supported.
So shouldn't we be venting our frustrations in the direction of Exeter?
I really don't think the city is relevant. What matters is what govt bods call the 'propensity to fly' - ie the market for in and outbound traffic. Too much business is leaked from BHX and EMA to the south, and to a lesser extent the north.
BHX can only do so much about this, due to its proximity to London, however, London airports are running out of space. The airport hope to capitalise on this, but if there is a lesson here as a warning, is it not the dead duck that is MSE?
London people and visitors will want to use London airports. I could go on about LHR v Thames v LGW, but I think all of you refs will send me off for that - needless to say, the demand for London airspace will resolve itself somehow.
Which takes us back to Nigel's quote:
Sure BHX know what they are doing..well lets hope they do !
If anything, my biggest disappointment is not with airport management, who can only go so far with their enthusiasm for route development. Is BHX not one of the largest, and certainly longest established of BE's bases? Great things were promised with both the Q400 and the E-jets, and what have we got. Virtually all the European destinations mentioned above would surely be ideal for the E175 on whatever frequency could be supported.
So shouldn't we be venting our frustrations in the direction of Exeter?
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BE routes have come and gone at BHX like many other airlines, at many other airports.
Gone are the days when BE operated to the likes of Bergamo (now have MXP so not too bad), Faro, Alicante, Palma, Malaga etc I think there is a reasonably long list of destinations that Flybe have tried over the years but only some domestics and business European routes have remained.
I think possibly there may be some expansion from BE at BHX but they wont be in the immediate future. Anyone have any idea on when the next batch of 175s will be in??
Gone are the days when BE operated to the likes of Bergamo (now have MXP so not too bad), Faro, Alicante, Palma, Malaga etc I think there is a reasonably long list of destinations that Flybe have tried over the years but only some domestics and business European routes have remained.
I think possibly there may be some expansion from BE at BHX but they wont be in the immediate future. Anyone have any idea on when the next batch of 175s will be in??
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Nigel
We may have a pier capable of handling 6 77Ws at a time, but we certainly don't have an immigration facility capable of processing a quarter of the passengers generated by those 77Ws. Thankfully I now have a chip passport but up until the end of last year there was a 3 or 4 month period when they couldn't be bothered to repair Iris and the queues just to get into the immigration hall could well be halfway down the new pier.
We may have a pier capable of handling 6 77Ws at a time, but we certainly don't have an immigration facility capable of processing a quarter of the passengers generated by those 77Ws. Thankfully I now have a chip passport but up until the end of last year there was a 3 or 4 month period when they couldn't be bothered to repair Iris and the queues just to get into the immigration hall could well be halfway down the new pier.
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I moaned to BHX extensively about this on Twitter when I got back from Dubai in November.
It was so bad I am sure I could have flown to LHR and been home quicker, a point I made to them.
They accepted it and said they were speaking to the Border Agency about improving wait times. However, when you see what the BA's wait time target is, BHX is actually "good":
It was so bad I am sure I could have flown to LHR and been home quicker, a point I made to them.
They accepted it and said they were speaking to the Border Agency about improving wait times. However, when you see what the BA's wait time target is, BHX is actually "good":
Waiting times at the border
With tougher checks now in place at the border you may have to wait a little longer to get into the UK, especially at peak times. We use scanners to ensure that passports, visas and other official documents are genuine. Our officers are trained to detect forgeries and check that people have the right to enter the UK.
An officer will check your passport and give you permission to stay, if you need it. We aim to see you within 45 minutes.
With tougher checks now in place at the border you may have to wait a little longer to get into the UK, especially at peak times. We use scanners to ensure that passports, visas and other official documents are genuine. Our officers are trained to detect forgeries and check that people have the right to enter the UK.
An officer will check your passport and give you permission to stay, if you need it. We aim to see you within 45 minutes.
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BobBHX
Yes an airport can only operate properly, if it has enough staff, and British Airports do seem to run a lot of the time on minimum staffing.
Flew into Vancouver and out of Calgary recently, ALL immigration desks were manned and there seemed an army of baggage handlers and support staff..no cutbacks over there it seemed.
Nigel
Yes an airport can only operate properly, if it has enough staff, and British Airports do seem to run a lot of the time on minimum staffing.
Flew into Vancouver and out of Calgary recently, ALL immigration desks were manned and there seemed an army of baggage handlers and support staff..no cutbacks over there it seemed.
Nigel
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The 45 Places to Go in 2012
The 45 Places to Go in 2012 - NYTimes.com
Check out 19..!!
19. Birmingham, England
Could England’s second city be first in food?
Olive, the BBC’s food magazine, recently startled British gourmands when it declared Birmingham, England’s second largest city, the United Kingdom’s “foodiest town,” ahead of London and Edinburgh. The award came last October, just as Birmingham was hosting an annual festival, the 10-day Birmingham Food Fest, which featured such local talents as Aktar Islam of Lasan Restaurant; up-and-comers like David Colcombe of Opus, Andy Waters of Edmunds Restaurant and Steve Love of Loves Restaurant; and a troika of Michelin-starred chefs: Glynn Purnell of Purnell’s; Andreas Antona, Luke Tipping and Adam Bennett of Simpsons Restaurant; and Richard Turner of Turners of Harborne.
The chefs are building on an already rich dining scene. Birmingham is famous in Britain for its Balti Triangle, an area of town that is home to a beloved Pakistani-Kashmiri curry dish invented here; it is also birthplace to such classically British food items as Typhoo Tea, Bird’s Custard and HP Sauce. ALEXANDER LOBRANO
Adie
Check out 19..!!
19. Birmingham, England
Could England’s second city be first in food?
Olive, the BBC’s food magazine, recently startled British gourmands when it declared Birmingham, England’s second largest city, the United Kingdom’s “foodiest town,” ahead of London and Edinburgh. The award came last October, just as Birmingham was hosting an annual festival, the 10-day Birmingham Food Fest, which featured such local talents as Aktar Islam of Lasan Restaurant; up-and-comers like David Colcombe of Opus, Andy Waters of Edmunds Restaurant and Steve Love of Loves Restaurant; and a troika of Michelin-starred chefs: Glynn Purnell of Purnell’s; Andreas Antona, Luke Tipping and Adam Bennett of Simpsons Restaurant; and Richard Turner of Turners of Harborne.
The chefs are building on an already rich dining scene. Birmingham is famous in Britain for its Balti Triangle, an area of town that is home to a beloved Pakistani-Kashmiri curry dish invented here; it is also birthplace to such classically British food items as Typhoo Tea, Bird’s Custard and HP Sauce. ALEXANDER LOBRANO
Adie