Aer Lingus - 6

[MCDU2]

Plenty of others who would happily fly RE aircraft if current staff don't want to.

And because of wannabes like you all to willing to make stupid comments and jump into the breach its no wonder that the average salary at AA is only circa 30k per annum. With an average that low I would hate to think what someone like you joining would get paid. Out of that meagre salary you would then need to pay off the ATR rating which used to be over inflated not to mention any training costs. Then there is the small wee issue of surviving in one of the most punitive tax regimes in the world. Its no wonder people left in droves.

[Just a spotter]

L2A

Good points and well made.

However, a direct entry FO into a "regional" carrier like RE is most likely at the very start of their career as a pilot. Their qualification, all be it expensive to achieve, is analogous/comparable to a college degree (BA/BSc). A starting salary of circa €28,000 would be very much at the upper end of what a college graduate could expect with a 1st class honours degree entering the work force in Ireland today (some legal, science or IT related roles may pay a little more for an exceptional graduate, but very few). Also, keep in mind that the average industrial and median salary figures are usually earned by people towards the middle of their career (circa 20 years in).

From the official stats at the start of 2013 (the CSO Quarterly National Household Survey) ... and keep in mind that this is Irish household income, not individual ...

• 33% of households have a gross income of less than €30,000
• 56% of households have a gross income of less than €50,000
• 62% of households have a gross income below the average (mean) household income of €56,500
• The top 30% of households have a gross income of more than €70,000 per annum
• The top 20% of households have a gross income of more than €80,000 per annum
• 14% of household have a gross income above €100,000 per annum
• 2% of households have gross incomes above €200,000 per annum

For individuals the figures reveal;

• The top 5% of individuals in the income distribution have an income of more than €78,000 per annum
• The top 1.5% of individuals in the income distribution have an income of more than €120,000 per annum
• The top 1% of individuals in the income distribution have an income of more than €140,000 per annum

Half way through their career, where would the average pilot's income sit?


I accept that the job is demanding. I also accept that the industry (globally) has probably pushed a little too far on hours/fatigue. That said, over their career a pilot has higher than average earning potential and in that light the initial cost of the training and the first few years of relatively lower pay should be viewed as a personal investment.

JAS

[Coupled_To_Me]

JAS

My understanding from talking to a friend with RE, who I trained with is:

The yr 1 FO starts on 28K and remains on 28K for the rest of his or her career as an FO. No payscale. No increments.

If he/she becomes a Capt, starts on 50k, and remains on 50k till retirement. No payscales. No increments. No pension. I think L2A's Command figures were slightly excessive.

[EI-A330-300]

MCDU2

His comment is right, I have just read another forum where people were complaining that Aer Arann wouldn't take them on.

[Just a spotter]

CTM

thanks for the additional info. I don't know of any private sector jobs that come with an associated pay scale. Increases are not guaranteed and many will have experienced salary reductions over the last few years.

I doubt RE are looking for career people, rather they are keeping costs low by recruiting lower hours individuals and benefiting from their hour building (which the individual ultimately benefits from when they move to a higher paying operator). The business model is most likely to be different to the larger/legacy carriers.

That said, €50K per year is a very good salary in Ireland, even if the place is very expensive to live in.

JAS

[Coupled_To_Me]

The vast majority of airlines in Europe, most of them private companies, have pay scales for their pilots. Even Ryanair, I believe.

50k, is one of the lowest if not lowest salaries for an Airline Captain in western Europe.

A large percentage of low hour pilots coupled with a high turnover of pilots will inevitably result in more and more incidents and accidents.

[liffy2A]

Thanks for the posts. I want to add I have no hidden agenda with unions. The figures I gave are to the best of my knowledge. I take your point JAS about 28k starting third level education is no where near 100k to train.There is no pension and job security is minimal compared to any other profession. Personally it will take me over 12 years to pay it back. The salary is fixed at these rates since 2010 after the 10% pay cut. There has not been an increase in wages in AA for over 10 years all through the Celtic tiger era.Your argument is it is a stepping stone airline to get experience, I have had too. They guys looking to strike are trying to make it a place to work long term at home.So they do not have to move to Australia, Middle East like so many others. To give you an average approx 30 guys with over 4 year experience have left in the last 2 years because of the pay.For example Virgin Australia operate ATRs there paying FO's the same as a captains salary in Arann. You have to compare jobs with jobs not average wages in countries/households. Then you just have Cuba. Yes it's a pain in the ass for the travelling public but its the last form of defence for Arann as a place to work LONGTERM. Now lets just go back to giving out about those nasty doctors,nurse,teachers, who don't pay taxes that will not work for minimum wages. How dare they!

[brian_dromey]

No one in saying pilots should, work for minimum wage, but 28k is not a terrible staring salary, admittedly less when trying repayments are taken into account.
The reality is that an airline like RE does not want long-term career pilots. Their payscale (or alleged lack thereof) makes that clear.

What RE are offering is the ability to come home every night, being based near to where your family/life are without uprooting. People make choices. Not everyone is motivated by a massive bank balance, so I don't think it's fair to say that pilots at RE are necessailry under/overpaid. Many of the crews I have met on RE flights are with Arann for exactly that reason. A 100k salary at BA ain't much good if you spend more time miserable in a Travel Inn in Crawley than at home with your family.

[Shamrogue]

28K not bad to start with

Yes 100K to train is alot of lids.

If you don't progress then you are looking at 20 years of 1000.00 a month out of your salary - but we assume you'll progress.

Those of us who've spent 4 years in college will come in at the bones of 50K (that was 20 years ago). with digs etc. So education is not cheap. Again we've had to make repayments where necessary. I don't know what a college education will cost now.

Then like First Offers it's how well we get on........ie we use our degree to earn as much as we can. Or in the case of a pilot you work your way up the ladder and airline hop.

Most people in any job have issues with salaries in some shape or fashion. Look at people who start business's - they might borrow against their house, or savings - sink it into a business and the business goes bang.

It is the career you signed up for. You were aware of the pitfalls before you began.

Regards
Shamrogue

[liffy2A]

So your saying 1200 1300 euros a month is acceptable to take home before, rent,transport bills a month in modern day Cork,Shannon,Dublin Brian? Ok you may upgrade in 4 years if your lucky.Honestly? I will not even start about paying a mortgage or car loan because the banks will not even entertain you with a pilot job in Arann. Then they will ask you a letter of your contract about how much you earn. FOs contract will state 30k a year, but you turn around and tell them I only earn 28k as you can see from my pay slips. The reason for this is when the pay cut in 2010 when Paul Schulz was CEO. He walked in and told everyone it was totally illegal but if they didn't do it the company would close. People did it and we're happy to do if for the survival of the company.(that doesn't make news) problem is now Aer Arann haven't been even honouring there contract of employment for over 3 years.

[Hangar6]

Thread drift

Please can we move to Re thread?
I think it's a low salary for FO , and there is only one way to sort it and IALPA are well able to get it sorted ....now back to EI???

[Jack1985]

RE strike has been called off for ballot on a negotiated pay agreement

[Tooloose]

This is a great result for the pilots, a clear demonstration of the effectiveness of worker unity and proof of the need for a strong union as a defence against greedy employers.

[riptack]

Re: comparisons with university grads

University education is heavily subsidised in Ireland with citizen students only paying max registration fees of €2,500 per year (€10k for a 4 year degree), and possibly zero depending on their family circumstances.

I don't think that's comparable to a pilot who has privately funded his/her own training to €100k. Surely we'll get to a situation where good candidates won't train as pilots as the deferred reward of a low salary is not worth it.

[mart901]

Yahoo! News UK & Ireland - Latest World News & UK News Headlines

[Epsomdog]

Even more interesting!

Aer Lingus held merger talks prior to Ryanair bid - Telegraph

[MCDU2]

The article was from January.

[Aerlingus231]

Irish Echo | Ryanair is pressing bid for Aer Lingus

Well if this is correct FR will still press for a takeover.

I was going to say "Oh FFS ", but that's dated from the 28th of January...

Edit: Beaten to it.

[j636]

Oh sorry, it came up as 6 hours old online. Thank god its an old one.

[Hangar6]

EI no Titan

No subbing for over. Week, this is good to see, or is it just that the fleet is really being sweated as well as the crews? Including line maintainable ,