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Old 5th Oct 2013, 15:03
  #1881 (permalink)  
 
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Is it to much work for 4 crew on the A320 on a 4h30m flight to TFS from DUB, SNN-JFK isn't much longer. Crew are largely done and dusted with services 2 hours into the flights.
The workload on a TFS and a JFK are completely different; on a TFS not every passenger eats/drinks. You have a BOB service and duty free. A T/A service is far busier, and far more labour intensive, hence why every other 757 operator operates with 6 crew. You haven't flown on a T/A service in awhile if you think the service can be done in 2 hours!

I don't think EY standards are required from SNN.
EI are looking at EY's standard of service in their Business cabin, where no carts are used, and everything is plated up, like in a restaurant. However, EY have a lot more crew to do this; EI wants it done with the absolute minimum crew.

The fact of the matter is that with minimum crew, passengers, in particular the high yield Business passengers will suffer with slow service. Business Class service can easily take 3 hours Eastbound on a 330, with 2 crew serving 24 passengers, which is not good enough when passengers are paying a premium to rest. EI cannot see that operating the 757s with 4 crew will lower the levels of service provided to its passengers. If an additional crew member on each 757 is going to make the operation uneconomical, I guess the 757 plan was never going to be the money spinner they had hoped for!

I am far from a pro-union head. I am passionate about EI delivering the best service that they can. Time and time again, EI half heartedly try things; Dubai, Washington & the West Coast all spring to mind. I think the 757 operation is evidence that EI has not learnt anything,

Last edited by johnrizzo2000; 5th Oct 2013 at 15:05.
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Old 5th Oct 2013, 15:08
  #1882 (permalink)  
 
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Well I'm pretty sure that SNN isn't exactly a premium market. Dublin I'm sure has high demand for premium service, but I think most T/A flights into SNN don't need EY levels of service, it's mainly VFR traffic on that route.
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Old 5th Oct 2013, 15:14
  #1883 (permalink)  
 
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I agree 5 crew per aircraft is whats needed, especially as the business passengers are going to need ''high maintenance'', also comparisons of a DUB-TFS sector against T/A routes are totally unrealistic, aren't passengers entitled to free bar services and meals on T/A? if so its a whole different ball game in terms of demanded service by the crew against short haul services. Management are simply trying to get the lowest possible crew number and to be the most competitive at Shannon with a much better aircraft against UA and DL, they still can with 5 crew. However as has been said, the public will be on EI's side, so the unions are going to have to be more creative than the usual, stop working and expect answers routine.

A kind of separate question, will 3 cockpit crew be required as per standard operations on the A330 fleet for T/A services?
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Old 5th Oct 2013, 15:17
  #1884 (permalink)  
 
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Well I'm pretty sure that SNN isn't exactly a premium market. Dublin I'm sure has high demand for premium service, but I think most T/A flights into SNN don't need EY levels of service, it's mainly VFR traffic on that route
UA attracts a decent level of high yield business passengers on their SNN-EWR service, so with a good product, EI could do well. If their was no demand for Business class, EI would operate the 757s in an all economy configuration.

Also, EI wont be just operating the 757 from Shannon; the new Dublin to Toronto route, which should attract Business passengers, will be also be on the 757. And there is nothing stopping them operating the 757 on DUB-JFK/BOS/ORD in the future.
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Old 5th Oct 2013, 15:45
  #1885 (permalink)  
 
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EI A330

A kind of separate question, will 3 cockpit crew be required as per standard operations on the A330 fleet for T/A services?
Afaik standard operations (JFK BOS & ORD) only require 2 cockpit crew. Not sure about MCO, it might depend on length of flight?
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Old 5th Oct 2013, 15:50
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Afaik standard operations (JFK BOS & ORD) only require 2 cockpit crew. Not sure about MCO, it might depend on length of flight?
Nope, there has always been a relief pilot on Transatlantic even to Boston which is rather short. But I'd imagine it would be pretty much the same scenario on the 757 requiring 3?
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Old 5th Oct 2013, 16:20
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SFO will be the only route with 3 pilots; all others have 2. If MCO is a longer than normal flight they may send 3
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Old 5th Oct 2013, 16:22
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SFO will be the only route with 3 pilots; all others have 2. If MCO is a longer than normal flight they may send 3
Can you have a look at this then?
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Old 5th Oct 2013, 16:26
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I agree they should have 5 cabin crew in their 757s. If they are going daily to JFK then they are up against DL and UA. Some of their 757s are fairly scruffy, no ptvs and they go tech quite often because they tend to be older. If EI could offer a better product than these 2 then the loads would follow. And there are still quite a number of US multinationals based in Shannon so i suspect a good business class product on EI would chase Delta away in the winter

As for the three pilots, when reading the incident report on the aileron deflection in BIRD on the way to ORD, there was definately a relief Pilot mentioned

Last edited by Una Due Tfc; 5th Oct 2013 at 16:28.
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Old 5th Oct 2013, 16:28
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I'd imagine there were three on that flight as the DUB BOS route was her last, so the other two were needed to fly home the next day.
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Old 5th Oct 2013, 17:24
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As for the three pilots, when reading the incident report on the aileron deflection in BIRD on the way to ORD, there was definately a relief Pilot mentioned
Could have been an inspector / check pilot. I'm 99% sure that there's definitely only 2 pilots normally on the JFK/BOS/ORD flights.
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Old 5th Oct 2013, 17:54
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The workload on a TFS and a JFK are completely different; on a TFS not every passenger eats/drinks. You have a BOB service and duty free. A T/A service is far busier, and far more labour intensive, hence why every other 757 operator operates with 6 crew. You haven't flown on a T/A service in awhile if you think the service can be done in 2 hours!
The 2 hours wasn't referring to T/A flights. Clearly going for 4 crew is for profitability and having extra crew will eat into potential profits. I suspect the A330 service is very weak if not loss making and they have to get them profitable as closing them just isn't an option.

Also, EI wont be just operating the 757 from Shannon; the new Dublin to Toronto route, which should attract Business passengers, will be also be on the 757. And there is nothing stopping them operating the 757 on DUB-JFK/BOS/ORD in the future.
DUB-YYZ is purely low cost market at the minute, Air Canada Rouge taking it over and when it was mainline only 1 or of the 7 weekly flights had business class. Air Transit more less loco to. Going for 5 crew on this just would not be an option if they want to make profit. To much risk involved carriers can't afford risks now days.
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Old 5th Oct 2013, 18:02
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why would you need three crew ? its a short flight !
2 crew is all thats required
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Old 5th Oct 2013, 18:05
  #1894 (permalink)  
 
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@JACK No. That flight was a mark of respect for Capt Cronin. There were three pilots of which one volunteered to work on her time off to mark the occassion. Standard practice with EI on their A330 operations is 2 flight deck and 8 cabin crew (min safety numbers). On a very very rare occasion there might be a 3rd pilot placed on an MCO if flight time is particularly long and there has been a delay at the airport causing flight deck to be on duty longer than is permissible with 2 crew ops.

The likes of SFO and LAX etc would require a 3rd pilot as standard due to the length of duty. The only other reason for a third pilot is for line checks.

Hope that clears up that little bit of confusion.

Last edited by EISNN; 5th Oct 2013 at 18:06.
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Old 5th Oct 2013, 18:46
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Hope that clears up that little bit of confusion.
Cheers, that video had my convinced! Thanks
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Old 7th Oct 2013, 19:29
  #1896 (permalink)  
 
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ACL | Solutions
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Old 7th Oct 2013, 19:55
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If a 5th cabin crew member will make the B757 operation uneconomical then it was pretty marginal already.
I expect that the cost of new cabin crew are sub 25K per annum. So thats 40 crew x 24K, 1 million euro......a lot of cash.
But not when you divide it by 3 B757's operating perhaps 4-5 round trips per week. Lets call it 4 per aircraft.....12x52=624 round trips.....at lets say 6 J class and 100 Y class pax (I expect EI would want a lot more than that)...... that a yearly total of 3744 J/ 62,400 Y. Purely on numbers rather than ticket fares we get approx a cost of 15 Euro per pax to have those 40 crew hired for the B757. And with a full flight the cost per pax goes down even further.


US carriers have 6 crew, Icelandair who operate shorter routes to the USA have 5 crew. Anyone know how many Thompson have on their B757? (EDIT-Thks TSR2 for the info that Thompson have 200+ pax)
EI are going to have 4....what happens when a flight deck member has to come out to the toilet? The crew member in J class will then have to go into the cockpit.....is J class unattended? What happens if a pax gets sick....does the service stop?
I can't see J class pax jumping ship from UA/DL/US to EI with a less customer focused J class service. My last time on UA it looked as if they had 2 serving J with 4 in Y. So does this mean EI will have 2 crew serving 170 in Y Class

Referring to the comment "EY standards not needed ex-SNN"....if EI upgrade their J Class service it will across the board, not just ex-DUB and not just on their A330's. While the seats may be different on the B757 they will have to offer the same actual service levels.

And I can't see the service being too short on the Eastbound night flights.....it may well take the whole journey BOS-SNN....I think I'll make sure to pack my earplugs and eyemask on those flights.....

For arguments sake I just looked at fares: 20th Jan, SNN-BOS with BOS-SNN on the 24th;590 Euros in Y, 1997 Euros in J Class.

Last edited by DollarBill; 8th Oct 2013 at 07:23.
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Old 7th Oct 2013, 22:56
  #1898 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone know how many Thompson have on their B757?
Don't forget that the Thomson 757's have 200+ seats and therefore require more than 4 crew by law.
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Old 8th Oct 2013, 11:53
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Aer Lingus expect to announce their interline partner at YYZ soon, they will be offering connections from YYZ to Vancouver, Montreal, Saint Johns, Halifax, Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa and Winnipeg. Currently some are offered via ORD with UA.

It could be Air Canada but EI entrance to YYZ-DUB could of changed things. WestJet also a possible carrier.
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Old 9th Oct 2013, 18:25
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Aer Lingus have said bye bye to cabin crew who were training for B757 flights.

Trainee cabin crew jettisoned in Aer Lingus dispute | Irish Examiner
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