Plymouth City Airport Closure
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But "the train to London" doesn't just go to London, does it? It stops a few miles up the road, then a few miles further, and a few miles further again. How many passengers per week get on a train at Plymouth and don't get off till they reach London - are there figures for that?
When passengers do the time-cost-benefit analysis, sure, they'll frequently choose the longer ground-level journey that makes numerous stops on the way rather than an expensive uninterrupted flight and no amount of marketing will change their minds. So the airlines need to offer a different product.
When passengers do the time-cost-benefit analysis, sure, they'll frequently choose the longer ground-level journey that makes numerous stops on the way rather than an expensive uninterrupted flight and no amount of marketing will change their minds. So the airlines need to offer a different product.
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Plymouth closure
It's sad news. I think the rot set in way back when Brymon lost the Heathrow slots and were re-located to Gatwick. Newquay and Plymouth to London City should have been successful but the routing imposed by ATC to get them around the London TMA outbound and Gatwick inbound blew it because it added so much flight time.
I used the Newquay/Heathrow service a lot during the 70's using the Brymon HP Herald when I was working in Saudi Arabia. It was a fabulous connection with either the BA flights to Dhahran or the QANTAS flights to Bahrain. Flights were always popular because so many 'janners' were working in the Middle East at the time. The breakfast beer sessions at Terminal 1 LHR on arrival back from KSA were legendary.
So, farewell Plymouth. You were one of my stops when I did my first solo cross-country when learning to fly at Bodmin. Shedding a tear or two as I write.
I used the Newquay/Heathrow service a lot during the 70's using the Brymon HP Herald when I was working in Saudi Arabia. It was a fabulous connection with either the BA flights to Dhahran or the QANTAS flights to Bahrain. Flights were always popular because so many 'janners' were working in the Middle East at the time. The breakfast beer sessions at Terminal 1 LHR on arrival back from KSA were legendary.
So, farewell Plymouth. You were one of my stops when I did my first solo cross-country when learning to fly at Bodmin. Shedding a tear or two as I write.
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Newquay and Plymouth to London City should have been successful but the routing imposed by ATC to get them around the London TMA outbound and Gatwick inbound blew it because it added so much flight time.
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But "the train to London" doesn't just go to London, does it? It stops a few miles up the road, then a few miles further, and a few miles further again. How many passengers per week get on a train at Plymouth and don't get off till they reach London - are there figures for that?
The train takes the best part of an hour just to get from Plymouth to Exeter. Mainly, of course, due to the circuitus (whilst scenic) route that Isambard Kingdom Brunel was forced to choose due to Devon's topography.
That additional hour is why air services from Devon's 2nd city to London have tended to work whilst those from Exeter have been, and always will be, unsuccesful.
If you then factor in the rail jouney time from the west of Cornwall just to get as far as Plymouth one can see that a London service from Newquay should be viable.
That additional hour is why air services from Devon's 2nd city to London have tended to work whilst those from Exeter have been, and always will be, unsuccesful.
If you then factor in the rail jouney time from the west of Cornwall just to get as far as Plymouth one can see that a London service from Newquay should be viable.
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Hence my question about the numbers remaining on the train all the way to London. When you have a community so far removed from (in this case) the capital city, the people there have a long tradition of ignoring it ... and vice versa. Logically, to those of us who have grown up within spitting distance of a busy international airport, a regular air service is the way to improve the link, but humans are not logical. 
It's not realistic to simply provide the connection to "somewhere" and expect it to flourish and remain viable without also making a determined effort to give an entire county reason to believe it serves a purpose or that it will be maintained long-term. In areas such as Devon&Cornwall - as in many parts of France - the locals have their cynicism reinforced by the frequent failed attempts of outsiders to impose on them a different mentality.
Not that that's stopping me from trying to do exactly the same.
It's not realistic to simply provide the connection to "somewhere" and expect it to flourish and remain viable without also making a determined effort to give an entire county reason to believe it serves a purpose or that it will be maintained long-term. In areas such as Devon&Cornwall - as in many parts of France - the locals have their cynicism reinforced by the frequent failed attempts of outsiders to impose on them a different mentality.
Not that that's stopping me from trying to do exactly the same.
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Plymouth's transport links when the airport closes
As well as having pretty mediocre rail links, Plymouth also has NO motorway. It is incredibly isolated for its size. Government policy is to build high speed train corridors North and when they do go west they usually go along the M4 corridor to Bristol, Cardiff and Swansea. Add to this APD taxes - for some regions air travel is the only viable option and the peripheral nature of Devon and Cornwall is only going to get worse.
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Plymouth also has NO motorway
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Eastern (Air Kilroe)
So if Plymouth is closing why have Eastern (Air Kilroe) applied for a route licence to Guernsey?
GTB 138 Air Kilroe Limited to operate a scheduled passenger service between Guernsey and Plymouth.
GTB 138 Air Kilroe Limited to operate a scheduled passenger service between Guernsey and Plymouth.
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Its probably because of AOC change. The current licence is for ASW that is disappearing but Eastern as such does not hold a licence therefore has to go through the process of obtaining a new licence in their name.
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When passengers do the time-cost-benefit analysis, sure, they'll frequently choose the longer ground-level journey that makes numerous stops on the way rather than an expensive uninterrupted flight and no amount of marketing will change their minds. So the airlines need to offer a different product.
I'm not sure if we're comparing like with like here?PLH-NQY-LGW means two sets of sitting at the gate (+1 set of security), taxiing, take of, climb - and only then can the table come down, although for the PLH-NQY sector is goes straight up again!
Now that is a hell of a lot of hassle for a short sectory, which still only delivers you to Sussex, not central London (well, the outer edge of Zone 1 at least).
The train v plane debate has often focussed around a threshold journey time where people will prefer to take the train. This has typically been 3-4 hours for biz pax, but imho it is getting longer as wifi becomes standard practice and laptops + mobile devices get more & more powerful.
So yes - each stop of the train will add 10 minutes to journey time, and maybe someone will sit at the table for four you have to yourself but otherwise there is no inconvenience.
Of course, biz pax can spread out more in 1st class, whereas my suspicion is that all the discretionary leisure pax will have been totally put off by two sets of APD. Now there is the real injustice - leisure flights out of EXT to Spain which support the Spanish economy very nicely thanks get taxed once. Take a PLH-GLA flight to support the UK economy and get taxed twice. Actually if the sector features a stop, is that APDx4? Always confused on that one!
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LGW in Sussex, W. Sussex, jabird?
When I worked at LGW the airport postal address was Horley, Surrey but the phone numbers were Crawley, West Sussex ..... it got so confusing they introduced a postal district of Gatwick, W. Sussex however the border between the two counties is the River Mole and that passes underneath the LGW runway and airfield.
When I worked at LGW the airport postal address was Horley, Surrey but the phone numbers were Crawley, West Sussex ..... it got so confusing they introduced a postal district of Gatwick, W. Sussex however the border between the two counties is the River Mole and that passes underneath the LGW runway and airfield.
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Hmm pf - not sure if we are in Judean People's Front territory here, I think we are! West Sussex would still be in the ancient county of Sussex eh?
Just don't tell me The Hague is the capital of Holland
Just don't tell me The Hague is the capital of Holland
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Den Haag is the capital of The Netherlands jabird ..... Not that I lived in the Holiday Inn, Leiden for an entire summer ... there's no such country as 'Holland'.
There are 2 different counties, East Sussex and West Sussex, much the same as there are a number of 'Yorkshire' counties but LGW is part in W. Sussex and part in Surrey.
There are 2 different counties, East Sussex and West Sussex, much the same as there are a number of 'Yorkshire' counties but LGW is part in W. Sussex and part in Surrey.
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pf, that is exactly why my statement is incorrect on two counts
Amsterdam is still the constitutional capital even though DH is seat of govt & royalty.
I was just being lazy about Susses 1st time round, was born in Cuckfield, but I will confess to needing to look up if it is East or West. It isn't as if there is a big wall between them, but I am glad we are all such pedants on PPRUNE
Amsterdam is still the constitutional capital even though DH is seat of govt & royalty.
I was just being lazy about Susses 1st time round, was born in Cuckfield, but I will confess to needing to look up if it is East or West. It isn't as if there is a big wall between them, but I am glad we are all such pedants on PPRUNE