CARDIFF - 2
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Bye
Withdrawing from this forum as I believe in debate but will not tolerate a situation where its deemed acceptable to attack people rather than their views
Good xmas and 2014 all
Good xmas and 2014 all
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In attempt to get this thread back on track:
Believing this to have been posted in response to my previous post I'll answer to it:
I don't believe that anyone is willing CWL to fail, moreso a case of being realistic, I went back some 30 years in history citing airline upon airline that have tried, and failed, to make something work out of CWL.
My point, of some bemusement, was that these enthusiasts on such threads as this are repeatedly calling for government subsidies, abolishment of APD etc. in the main to subsidise individuals who will only travel by air if they're getting a bargain.
And as for suggestion of willing people to become unemployed, well isn't it the majority of posters on this thread that are willing those employed at BRS to become unemployed by government subsidies and/or abolishment of APD at CWL?
And as for BAMC, just as an example a long standing maintenance facility exists at Lasham despite there being no other airfield activities besides gliding and BA are still going to need a MC whether it be at CWL or somewhere else.
A point is that CWL needs to diversify to get more non flying revenue coming in such as maintenance, previously there was an aircraft factory across by the flying club(s), do whatever because any growth in passenger numbers is going to be slow and only then until the next recession.
But then the Welsh Government decided to develop another aerodrome for maintenance etc. about 3 miles along the road from CWL didn't they?
I feel that certain posters on this thread are just willing the airport to fail - and to hell with the livelihoods of a significant number of people that work there - BAMC included.
I don't believe that anyone is willing CWL to fail, moreso a case of being realistic, I went back some 30 years in history citing airline upon airline that have tried, and failed, to make something work out of CWL.
My point, of some bemusement, was that these enthusiasts on such threads as this are repeatedly calling for government subsidies, abolishment of APD etc. in the main to subsidise individuals who will only travel by air if they're getting a bargain.
And as for suggestion of willing people to become unemployed, well isn't it the majority of posters on this thread that are willing those employed at BRS to become unemployed by government subsidies and/or abolishment of APD at CWL?
And as for BAMC, just as an example a long standing maintenance facility exists at Lasham despite there being no other airfield activities besides gliding and BA are still going to need a MC whether it be at CWL or somewhere else.
A point is that CWL needs to diversify to get more non flying revenue coming in such as maintenance, previously there was an aircraft factory across by the flying club(s), do whatever because any growth in passenger numbers is going to be slow and only then until the next recession.
But then the Welsh Government decided to develop another aerodrome for maintenance etc. about 3 miles along the road from CWL didn't they?
We'll said. I'm not typing rubbish and yes I was being very sacarstic. I want CWL to succeed but I have worked for one of the defunct airlines that was based there, I know what a struggle it is for airlines to make money there, otherwise my airline would still be running and I wouldn't have to keep paying that toll to get home from BRS.
In the industry CWL is known as an airline graveyard, it's a shame but a fact. Shouldn't waste money on things not needed as there is no demand.
Anyway I hardly post on here as I know nothing apparently about the industry I have worked in for many years now and seeing the evidence in front of me over and over again.
Merry Christmas.
In the industry CWL is known as an airline graveyard, it's a shame but a fact. Shouldn't waste money on things not needed as there is no demand.
Anyway I hardly post on here as I know nothing apparently about the industry I have worked in for many years now and seeing the evidence in front of me over and over again.
Merry Christmas.
Last edited by Stone Cold II; 14th Dec 2013 at 17:18.
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In the mid 70's -mid 80's Cardiff was Bristol the exact oposite position and it was very close to closing Bristol, with Cardiff pulling away into the distance. Its not the airport that needs Government money, it's the local businesses that need their help to reverse all the companies moving away to cheaper climes and locals becoming unemployed, which is why there is no passenger demand at Cardiff and airlines becoming uninterested in operating from there.
Get some jobs going in the area again and people back into work and eventually you'll see smilling faces with money to spend passing through doors once again to support an increase in the fortune of Cardiff.
Get some jobs going in the area again and people back into work and eventually you'll see smilling faces with money to spend passing through doors once again to support an increase in the fortune of Cardiff.
Brunel to Concorde
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I remember those times in the 70s and early 80s CJ when there was a serious lobby in the Bristol City Council in favour of closing their loss-making airport at Lulsgate which was a drain on rate payers' contributions.
In 1978 a government white paper divided UK airports into one of four categories: Gateway, Regional, Local and General Aviation. Cardiff was classified as the regional airport for South Wales and the West Country with Bristol listed as a local airport.
The appointment of the late Les Wilson as Bristol Airport MD in 1980 sowed the seeds for the turn-around that grew steadily, as the airport's potential began to be recognised under his stewardship, until he was tragically killed in a car accident in 1995. Since then BRS has grown to probably beyond Les's wildest dreams.
In terms of passenger numbers the two airports were actually never that far apart in Bristol's darkest days. In the 'noughties' the gap widened spectacularly mainly due of course to Go/easyJet later augmented by Ryanair whilst CWL, after a spurt in 2003 the first full year of bmi baby, struggled to keep in sight.
As the world financial woes ease CWL will recover from its dreadful five years - the first green shoots are already in evidence - but the relative sizes and make-ups of the respective catchments will always make it difficult for CWL to match BRS in overall passenger numbers, but it has its own particular strengths that can be realised. Furthermore, BRS is currently restricted to 10 mppa by its planning consents and if they cannot be overturned then CWL would benefit, but that's for the future.
The following table shows annual passenger numbers in millions per annum at both airports since 1968 (courtesy of the CAA), although until 1992 (when BRS breached 1 mppa for the first time) both airports were below the one million barrier. I've put an asterisk against the CWL figures in the years it was the busier of the two. The last time was in 1986.
CWL BRS
1968 0.130 0.130
1969 0.116 0.120
1970 0.171* 0.152
1971 0.213* 0.201
1972 0.239 0.262
1973 0.284 0.289
1974 0.230* 0.184
1975 0.209* 0.195
1976 0.192 0.205
1977 0.196 0.211
1978 0.234* 0.233
1979 0.254* 0.238
1980 0.261* 0.239
1981 0.294* 0.246
1982 0.360* 0.261
1983 0.383* 0.331
1984 0.429* 0.423
1985 0.387 0.402
1986 0.487* 0.469
1987 0.632 0.645
1988 0.619 0.705
1989 0.696 0.838
1990 0.593 0.774
1991 0.513 0.783
1992 0.653 1.026
1993 0.764 1.112
1994 0.990 1.276
1995 1.025 1.430
1996 1.001 1.394
1997 1.124 1.586
1998 1.230 1.814
1999 1.303 1.966
2000 1.500 2.124
2001 1.524 2.673
2002 1.416 3.415
2003 1.900 3.887
2004 1.873 4.603
2005 1.765 5.199
2006 1.993 5.710
2007 2.094 5.884
2008 1.979 6.229
2009 1.625 5.615
2010 1.398 5.723
2011 1.208 5.768
2012 1.013 5.916
Oct 2013 1.044 6.095
Note. I hope the Mods won't regard this as a CWL versus BRS post. It's certainly not meant to be. I've merely tried to illustrate some of the history of two closely-related airports whose fortunes have impacted on each other in the past and continue to do so.
In 1978 a government white paper divided UK airports into one of four categories: Gateway, Regional, Local and General Aviation. Cardiff was classified as the regional airport for South Wales and the West Country with Bristol listed as a local airport.
The appointment of the late Les Wilson as Bristol Airport MD in 1980 sowed the seeds for the turn-around that grew steadily, as the airport's potential began to be recognised under his stewardship, until he was tragically killed in a car accident in 1995. Since then BRS has grown to probably beyond Les's wildest dreams.
In terms of passenger numbers the two airports were actually never that far apart in Bristol's darkest days. In the 'noughties' the gap widened spectacularly mainly due of course to Go/easyJet later augmented by Ryanair whilst CWL, after a spurt in 2003 the first full year of bmi baby, struggled to keep in sight.
As the world financial woes ease CWL will recover from its dreadful five years - the first green shoots are already in evidence - but the relative sizes and make-ups of the respective catchments will always make it difficult for CWL to match BRS in overall passenger numbers, but it has its own particular strengths that can be realised. Furthermore, BRS is currently restricted to 10 mppa by its planning consents and if they cannot be overturned then CWL would benefit, but that's for the future.
The following table shows annual passenger numbers in millions per annum at both airports since 1968 (courtesy of the CAA), although until 1992 (when BRS breached 1 mppa for the first time) both airports were below the one million barrier. I've put an asterisk against the CWL figures in the years it was the busier of the two. The last time was in 1986.
CWL BRS
1968 0.130 0.130
1969 0.116 0.120
1970 0.171* 0.152
1971 0.213* 0.201
1972 0.239 0.262
1973 0.284 0.289
1974 0.230* 0.184
1975 0.209* 0.195
1976 0.192 0.205
1977 0.196 0.211
1978 0.234* 0.233
1979 0.254* 0.238
1980 0.261* 0.239
1981 0.294* 0.246
1982 0.360* 0.261
1983 0.383* 0.331
1984 0.429* 0.423
1985 0.387 0.402
1986 0.487* 0.469
1987 0.632 0.645
1988 0.619 0.705
1989 0.696 0.838
1990 0.593 0.774
1991 0.513 0.783
1992 0.653 1.026
1993 0.764 1.112
1994 0.990 1.276
1995 1.025 1.430
1996 1.001 1.394
1997 1.124 1.586
1998 1.230 1.814
1999 1.303 1.966
2000 1.500 2.124
2001 1.524 2.673
2002 1.416 3.415
2003 1.900 3.887
2004 1.873 4.603
2005 1.765 5.199
2006 1.993 5.710
2007 2.094 5.884
2008 1.979 6.229
2009 1.625 5.615
2010 1.398 5.723
2011 1.208 5.768
2012 1.013 5.916
Oct 2013 1.044 6.095
Note. I hope the Mods won't regard this as a CWL versus BRS post. It's certainly not meant to be. I've merely tried to illustrate some of the history of two closely-related airports whose fortunes have impacted on each other in the past and continue to do so.
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CityJet to operate Glasgow & Paris from Cardiff from 20th Jan and to introduce Edinburgh and Jersey later in the Summer.
Cardiff Airport secures new airline for Glasgow and Paris flights - Press release by Cardiff Airport
Cardiff Airport secures new airline for Glasgow and Paris flights - Press release by Cardiff Airport
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Great news BUT
Wrong product for Cardiff. If their fares are anything like those offered from LCY then this won't last more than a year. Do they KNOW the catchment area they are dealing with AT ALL????
Wrong product for Cardiff. If their fares are anything like those offered from LCY then this won't last more than a year. Do they KNOW the catchment area they are dealing with AT ALL????
Nakata - what is the right product, given that an airline needs to make a profit ? I agree that Cityjet at Cardiff is a bit of a surprise, but if Flybe's 78-seat Q400 didn't work, what would work ?
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In my opinion the only product that would work with the specific catchment area issues at CWL would be a Ryanair style product (strong brand awareness and ultra low fares).
I believe FR pulled out not because the market wasn't there but because CWL couldn't negotiate with them.
I believe FR pulled out not because the market wasn't there but because CWL couldn't negotiate with them.
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It was more than likely that they tried using their bully boy tactics and the airport wasn't having any of it because it would simply not be making any money off the routes. You have to take into consideration that it was when there was only a daily DUB offered by FR.
And before somone says look at what happened they went to BRS and now they have x amount of routes. Trust me a lot of them may not have even worked at CWL.
This is great news for CWL especially as BRS will be losing their daily CDG soon come the summer. If they use the correct aircraft then there is no reason why this cannot work.
A huge well done must go to the team at Cardiff Airport who no doubt have worked their socks off to secure this less than a month after Flybe announcing they will be pulling off the route.
And before somone says look at what happened they went to BRS and now they have x amount of routes. Trust me a lot of them may not have even worked at CWL.
This is great news for CWL especially as BRS will be losing their daily CDG soon come the summer. If they use the correct aircraft then there is no reason why this cannot work.
A huge well done must go to the team at Cardiff Airport who no doubt have worked their socks off to secure this less than a month after Flybe announcing they will be pulling off the route.
Good news, but not to forget that Flybe are not abandoning the EDI-CWL route completely, as the Logie Dornier will be taking over after Flybe proper finish in March.
Competition is a good thing, but not if it ends up meaning that neither carrier can sustain the route.
I think we are talking of both operating 3 daily, during the week.
Competition is a good thing, but not if it ends up meaning that neither carrier can sustain the route.
I think we are talking of both operating 3 daily, during the week.
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Just a note to say that while Nakata77's point about Cardiff's catchment area is apposite, the flights will also be FROM Glasgow and Paris, so the demographics of their catchment areas is also relevant.
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This is great news for CWL especially as BRS will be losing their daily CDG soon come the summer.
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CityJet has confirmed on social networking site this morning that it will be a Fokker 50.
At 6 x Mon-Fri has anybody counted the capacity difference? I make it only 12 additional seats in each direction per day to Edinburgh.
Everyone should congratulate the Cardiff Airport management on securing an airline not only to replace the lost routes within two weeks of the announced cull by Flybe. (GLA & CDG) They have also managed to ensure that there will be no loss in capacity to the other routes which would have had a major impact (EDI & JER).
The airport has done their bit now it's down to the South Wales community to do theirs.
At 6 x Mon-Fri has anybody counted the capacity difference? I make it only 12 additional seats in each direction per day to Edinburgh.
Everyone should congratulate the Cardiff Airport management on securing an airline not only to replace the lost routes within two weeks of the announced cull by Flybe. (GLA & CDG) They have also managed to ensure that there will be no loss in capacity to the other routes which would have had a major impact (EDI & JER).
The airport has done their bit now it's down to the South Wales community to do theirs.