CARDIFF - 2
The Western Gateway project wants an investment of £250m into Cardiff Airport in order to become an international hub that can serve fully laden flights to the US west coast etc.
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Well why else do we travel to Heathrow ? Reverse principle applies. Also if the Severn Barrage is constructed from Hinkley Point to Newport, then that will dramatically slash travelling time to CWL from the entire south-west, assuming of course it is built with a road-rail on top.
Well why else do we travel to Heathrow
I'm not sure of figures, but I would be pretty certain demand from the CWL catchment area is actually pretty low, even when you are comparing CWL to BRS.
Last edited by pug; 31st Oct 2012 at 14:31.
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Along with the road built from the M4 however, you need to upgrade the A/F aids, this might help a bit,the closure of Filton as an active airfield makes this available, much of the current equipment is being put up for sale:
BAE System's Filton Airfield, Air Traffic Control Systems - All Lots - GoIndustry DoveBid
BAE System's Filton Airfield, Air Traffic Control Systems - All Lots - GoIndustry DoveBid
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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Pug is right - why do I fly from Heathrow? Choice, price, frequent flyer program, you name it.
I am quite surprised that anyone is taking this seriously - clearly, airline economics have passed them by. The whole point of a hub is that enough people will use it to create enough traffic to make it work, both in terms of terminal traffic (which is going to be hard, since there really is not that much demand for most of these routes in the South West of England, South Wales) and in terms of interline traffic.
You don't just 'create' a hub - you need to get a very major player - a VERY major player - to come and cornerstone it, or alternatively get a whole host of network carriers in there.
Say they get TAM for South America, Etihad for the Middle/Far East, KLM is already there for Europe (although if they lose all their connecting traffic they may not be), and say Kenya Airways for all points south. Is that enough? No, no where near enough. Close down Bristol, Gloucester? That would help, but do you imagine that that would be possible, even with a barrage? Not a cat in hell's chance.
Pie in the sky, I'm afraid.
TA
I am quite surprised that anyone is taking this seriously - clearly, airline economics have passed them by. The whole point of a hub is that enough people will use it to create enough traffic to make it work, both in terms of terminal traffic (which is going to be hard, since there really is not that much demand for most of these routes in the South West of England, South Wales) and in terms of interline traffic.
You don't just 'create' a hub - you need to get a very major player - a VERY major player - to come and cornerstone it, or alternatively get a whole host of network carriers in there.
Say they get TAM for South America, Etihad for the Middle/Far East, KLM is already there for Europe (although if they lose all their connecting traffic they may not be), and say Kenya Airways for all points south. Is that enough? No, no where near enough. Close down Bristol, Gloucester? That would help, but do you imagine that that would be possible, even with a barrage? Not a cat in hell's chance.
Pie in the sky, I'm afraid.
TA
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Heathrow idea is so far fetched it will never happen! The airport would need complete rebuild and airfield is just to badly designed for parking of heavy a/c.
Limited air bridges, small departures lounge, crap security check point. Dream on people.
If the basic operations prove testing for cwl, this is like running in a egg and spoon one day and an ironman the next.
Limited air bridges, small departures lounge, crap security check point. Dream on people.
If the basic operations prove testing for cwl, this is like running in a egg and spoon one day and an ironman the next.
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CWL as international hub
I've read through the newspaper report more than once and the proposal is so light on detail as to be irrelevant at this stage. There is talk about a more detailed submission in due course but do the proponents already have a sort of 'back of fag packet' idea that they hope to translate into an arguable case?
There so many imponderables anyway. The road and rail infrastructure would clearly have to come from the public purse and the Severn Barrage is so controversial and comes in many versions that there is no certainty it will ever be built or, if it is, whether the design will allow road or rail passage across it.
But who is to foot the bill for what would be an immense sum to transform CWL into a major gateway airport? The current owners seem reluctant to do more than apply the odd lick of paint.
Is this something else the scheme supporters hope will come largely from public funding or do they they themselves intend to try to gain control of the airport and invest a huge amount of their own money?
Even if all the funding could be found and all the connecting and airport infrastructure built I'm still not sure what a Western Gateway means. Is it primarily intended for travellers to and from the south-west corner of Great Britain or as a full-blown alternative to Heathrow?
If the former, as TwinAisle (a man who knows a thing or two about airlines and airports from first-hand experience over many years) points out, a gateway aimed primarily at south-west Britain would not provide the numbers of passengers for even an emasculated LHR-type operation, and just a few long-haul flights would still send the majority of travellers to LHR of necessity.
If the idea is to be a sort of Heathrow overflow the suggestion made in another post that reverse principle applies is difficult to sustain. CAA and other surveys show that somewhere between 70% and 80% of LHR (and LGW for that matter) passengers originate or terminate in the South East. A tiny fraction of this figure does so in south-west Britain. This means that many, many more travellers would have to make their way from a CWL gateway to the South East than currently do so from LHR/LGW to the South West/South Wales.
In any case, if a major, or at least an important, gateway is needed away from the South East then Birmingham Airport seems the obvious contender. It's already an option for South Wales/South West travellers and it possesses rail and pretty decent road connectivity with a runway that's being lengthened and, according to its CEO, the ability to immediately double its current 9 mppa.
I really do find it hard to take the group's proposal seriously at this point though I do look forward to studying their worked-up, business case when it reaches the public domain.
There so many imponderables anyway. The road and rail infrastructure would clearly have to come from the public purse and the Severn Barrage is so controversial and comes in many versions that there is no certainty it will ever be built or, if it is, whether the design will allow road or rail passage across it.
But who is to foot the bill for what would be an immense sum to transform CWL into a major gateway airport? The current owners seem reluctant to do more than apply the odd lick of paint.
Is this something else the scheme supporters hope will come largely from public funding or do they they themselves intend to try to gain control of the airport and invest a huge amount of their own money?
Even if all the funding could be found and all the connecting and airport infrastructure built I'm still not sure what a Western Gateway means. Is it primarily intended for travellers to and from the south-west corner of Great Britain or as a full-blown alternative to Heathrow?
If the former, as TwinAisle (a man who knows a thing or two about airlines and airports from first-hand experience over many years) points out, a gateway aimed primarily at south-west Britain would not provide the numbers of passengers for even an emasculated LHR-type operation, and just a few long-haul flights would still send the majority of travellers to LHR of necessity.
If the idea is to be a sort of Heathrow overflow the suggestion made in another post that reverse principle applies is difficult to sustain. CAA and other surveys show that somewhere between 70% and 80% of LHR (and LGW for that matter) passengers originate or terminate in the South East. A tiny fraction of this figure does so in south-west Britain. This means that many, many more travellers would have to make their way from a CWL gateway to the South East than currently do so from LHR/LGW to the South West/South Wales.
In any case, if a major, or at least an important, gateway is needed away from the South East then Birmingham Airport seems the obvious contender. It's already an option for South Wales/South West travellers and it possesses rail and pretty decent road connectivity with a runway that's being lengthened and, according to its CEO, the ability to immediately double its current 9 mppa.
I really do find it hard to take the group's proposal seriously at this point though I do look forward to studying their worked-up, business case when it reaches the public domain.
Last edited by MerchantVenturer; 1st Nov 2012 at 12:29. Reason: typo
an investment of around £70m would be needed to lengthen and widen Cardiff’s existing runway.
Why would we expect a massive increase in pax through Cardiff?
I would have thought that the best way to increase visitor numbers would be to put in a decent road link and then turn the whole thing into the biggest IKEA in the world. That'd create jobs.
With fuel prices going through the roof I've told my son he is unlikely to get a job as a pilot when he is old enough due to the way the industry is progressing. What will happen to the industry when even Ryanair pax will not foot the escalating bill for jet fuel? How would you get your £70M back?
Last edited by blue up; 1st Nov 2012 at 13:17.
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Excuse me for stating the obvious but 'jet fuel', as you refer to it, comes from the same crude product as does moped fuel, car fuel, bus fuel etc. etc. etc.
Your son, by the sound of it, is going to have bl00dy sore feet!
Your son, by the sound of it, is going to have bl00dy sore feet!
I doubt that in 30 years time the price of fuel will be less, what with more people using more cars and all of us chasing stocks of petro products. Not so much the fuel running out as us being outbid on it. Remember during the fuel strike a few years ago when fuel shot up to 65p per litre??? What is it now?
There must surely come a point in time when travelling to Mexico for a week in the sun will become so expensive that we give it up as an excessively expensive luxury. A bit like getting bladdered on a Friday night has already become.
Spending £70M on an airport seems (to me at least) a bit like buying up all the cigarette factories at a knock-down price in that it may seem a bargain in the short term but you are going to need to get a return from an ever shrinking and fragile market. How many pax do you need to fly to service a £70M expenditure?
I didn't take a holiday abroad this year for cost reasons and I'm a Cardiff pilot with Thomson.
Note. Thomson sized airlines spend the thick end of $500M per year on jet fuel.
There must surely come a point in time when travelling to Mexico for a week in the sun will become so expensive that we give it up as an excessively expensive luxury. A bit like getting bladdered on a Friday night has already become.
Spending £70M on an airport seems (to me at least) a bit like buying up all the cigarette factories at a knock-down price in that it may seem a bargain in the short term but you are going to need to get a return from an ever shrinking and fragile market. How many pax do you need to fly to service a £70M expenditure?
I didn't take a holiday abroad this year for cost reasons and I'm a Cardiff pilot with Thomson.
Note. Thomson sized airlines spend the thick end of $500M per year on jet fuel.
Last edited by blue up; 1st Nov 2012 at 18:58.
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Words of wisdom from Merchant Venturer (of course), nothing wrong with pipe dreams but sorry Guys listen to those who have been there - it just isn't going to happen in Cardiff for now.
Cardiff will never learn. It never has. No point whatsoever in paying out stupid sums of money that it can't afford to waste to offer improvements to nobody.
Need a good deal amount of airlines and I'm afraid it fails to attract them. Big problem is the poor catchment area and the 2 biggest brands down the road at BRS who offer flights generally daily to most places across Europe.
Face it, the airport is stuffed and doomed to remain a quiet seasonal airport for the future unless someone drops a bomb on BRS. That's the facts and regardless what anyone says it isn't changing anytime soon this decade, I'll bet my entire career earnings on it!
Need a good deal amount of airlines and I'm afraid it fails to attract them. Big problem is the poor catchment area and the 2 biggest brands down the road at BRS who offer flights generally daily to most places across Europe.
Face it, the airport is stuffed and doomed to remain a quiet seasonal airport for the future unless someone drops a bomb on BRS. That's the facts and regardless what anyone says it isn't changing anytime soon this decade, I'll bet my entire career earnings on it!
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thomas cook to orlando sanford
looking on cardiff wiki thomas cook is showing orlando sanford and done the search on thomas cook website no dates loaded yet tho
Last edited by WELSHGUY40; 8th Nov 2012 at 15:32.
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Thomas Cook are doing a 1-off SFB in March, i think for Easter holidays. It's been on sale for several months. Hopefully its not too late to pick up where Monarch left. That's if the route is viable of course!
