CARDIFF - 2
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 775
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Such a shame, Cityjet jumped into replace Flybe after they initially pulled the routes.
I've used them a few times to both EDI and ORY, and found service to be very good.
It's great that Flybe are opening their new base with 2 aircraft but surely they could have chosen to other initial destinations to allow Cityjet to keep the routes they served.
As said previously let's hope Flybe make the big effort that is now expected of them.
I've used them a few times to both EDI and ORY, and found service to be very good.
It's great that Flybe are opening their new base with 2 aircraft but surely they could have chosen to other initial destinations to allow Cityjet to keep the routes they served.
As said previously let's hope Flybe make the big effort that is now expected of them.
Brunel to Concorde
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Virtute et Industria, et Sumorsaete Ealle
Posts: 2,283
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cityjet
CityJet blames Cardiff Airport's 'favourable' support to rival Flybe for pulling its Paris and Edinburgh routes - Wales Online
A balanced article that shows both sides of the 'argument'.
A balanced article that shows both sides of the 'argument'.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: northern ireland
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CWL can do a deal with airlines as they please I would imagine, if Ryanair were to come knocking at the door I'm sure flybe wouldn't be a consideration. Business is Business and flybe have been forced off many a route such as IOM-Lgw. However no matter what deal is in place it will only workout for flybe if the public choose to use their services. I hope for CWL that it does!
Was in Cardiff last week and good to see lots of Flybe advertising around Cardiff Central Station - lots on the gateline barriers for example.
Also on the M4 near Newport saw one of those van-mounted mobile advertising hoardings advertising BmiR from Bristol.
Also on the M4 near Newport saw one of those van-mounted mobile advertising hoardings advertising BmiR from Bristol.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Business is business, but isn't CWL state owned? While a business can do whatever it wants with private money, surely the government can't do what ever it likes with public money, particularly when it involves inequal treatment of private businesses?
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 617
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The government can't do whatever it wants with state aid but the money that goes from the government to the airport is a loan on commercial terms and therefore isn't state aid. The airport will negotiate with a new entrant depending on how many routes and passengers they are offering. The long term risk that they will use those terms to drive away the competition and in the long term leave you with an airport dominated by one carrier is well known by smaller airports that have negotiated with the LCCs.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: here
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
runway30 - perhaps I'm missing something but I've not been able to find any information about the interest rate being charged... Maybe I should do an FoI as it's public money?
Also according to EU state aid regulations a commercial loan from a government can be state aid if a private investor wouldn't have made the same investment on the same terms or if the loan distorts the local market.
If the loan is such a great deal for the taxpayer why didn't a private sector finance company provide the loan?
Also according to EU state aid regulations a commercial loan from a government can be state aid if a private investor wouldn't have made the same investment on the same terms or if the loan distorts the local market.
If the loan is such a great deal for the taxpayer why didn't a private sector finance company provide the loan?
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Crawley
Posts: 375
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have the same things not gone on at BRS with the carriers that operate there? What about the other UK airports? Do they not offer favourable terms to airlines? I'm pretty sure BRS would have given FR some very good deals to operate there. If there were any discrepancies over state aid then they would have already been hauled through the courts.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: here
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@bycrewlgw how many of those airports are state-owned and the very same state is providing the loan?
If CWL was privately owned and they raided the piggy bank or took out a commercial loan from a bank in order to encourage an airline to fly particular routes there would be no issue.
If CWL was privately owned and the Welsh Government gave them loan in order to encourage an airline to fly particular routes there could be an issue (especially if a bank wouldn't be prepared to issue a loan under the same terms).
If CWL was privately owned and they raided the piggy bank or took out a commercial loan from a bank in order to encourage an airline to fly particular routes there would be no issue.
If CWL was privately owned and the Welsh Government gave them loan in order to encourage an airline to fly particular routes there could be an issue (especially if a bank wouldn't be prepared to issue a loan under the same terms).
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 617
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
State aid rules do not distinguish between public and private airports. The rate of interest charged will determine if it is state aid regardless of where ownership lies. If it isn't state aid when the loan is made, it can't subsequently become state aid if the airport decides to pursue a commercial strategy that involves paying a subsidy to attract a new airline.
Brunel to Concorde
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Virtute et Industria, et Sumorsaete Ealle
Posts: 2,283
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Wales Assembly Government would have to be pretty dopey if they made a loan to themselves as owners of CWL in a way that was likely to breach state aid rules.
Even if the details of the loan were challengeable I wonder if the BRS owners/management would bother to pick this particular fight. Their own airport is increasing the momentum of its growth of the past five years and the several thousand passengers it might lose to CWL because of Flybe might be considered relatively negligible and not worth a legal battle that it might not win.
As has been pointed out, if a state abuses its position in providing state aid then it can be held accountable but so far as I'm aware there is no evidence that the WAG has done this.
From their public pronouncements the BRS management is more concerned about APD being devolved to Wales.
I don't understand bycrewlgw's point about BRS and state aid. What state aid does he/she think they received? Any incentives they might have given airlines would have been from the airport's own funds or from commercial borrowings which don't impact the state aid rules.
Even if the details of the loan were challengeable I wonder if the BRS owners/management would bother to pick this particular fight. Their own airport is increasing the momentum of its growth of the past five years and the several thousand passengers it might lose to CWL because of Flybe might be considered relatively negligible and not worth a legal battle that it might not win.
As has been pointed out, if a state abuses its position in providing state aid then it can be held accountable but so far as I'm aware there is no evidence that the WAG has done this.
From their public pronouncements the BRS management is more concerned about APD being devolved to Wales.
I don't understand bycrewlgw's point about BRS and state aid. What state aid does he/she think they received? Any incentives they might have given airlines would have been from the airport's own funds or from commercial borrowings which don't impact the state aid rules.
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Bangor (Gwynedd)
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I just had a phone call from a very apologetic Links Air explaining that next Wednesday's Cardiff to Norwich flight has been cancelled as I was the only person booked on it :P I do worry about Links Air sometimes, albeit from a misplaced sense of loyalty with them being my "local airline". Thank god for the WAG subsidy :P