CARDIFF - 2
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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Austrian is not state owned, but let that pass.
The point is that SOMEONE is paying the tax; it is either being passed on to the customer (result - fewer passengers) or the airline is absorbing it (result - less revenue). Either way, if the tax could be reduced, it is a win/win. Whether that is enough of a win/win to encourage an operator to start a flight to CWL in the current climate? Jury is out. I would bet that some operators may well switch services out of BHX and BRS - particularly the IT companies...
TA
The point is that SOMEONE is paying the tax; it is either being passed on to the customer (result - fewer passengers) or the airline is absorbing it (result - less revenue). Either way, if the tax could be reduced, it is a win/win. Whether that is enough of a win/win to encourage an operator to start a flight to CWL in the current climate? Jury is out. I would bet that some operators may well switch services out of BHX and BRS - particularly the IT companies...
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Is this a sign that Bristol Airport is really concerned over Air Passenger Duty being devovled? Why should Cardiff Airport help their competitors?
Cardiff and Bristol airports ‘work together on tax’ call - click to view article
Cardiff and Bristol airports ‘work together on tax’ call - click to view article
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This is nonsense, what is a "London" airport? You'd never see a quicker rebranding of airport names if this idea was taken seriously!
In the article, James Gore of Bristol airport is quoted as saying "... The majority of London airports are operating at capacity."
That's "bull" isn't it? In the entire UK only LHR is at capacity all the time and LGW at some peak times.
No, the way forward with APD is either a low flat rate as in Ireland, or better still, scrap it entirely as in Denmark and the Netherlands.
In the article, James Gore of Bristol airport is quoted as saying "... The majority of London airports are operating at capacity."
That's "bull" isn't it? In the entire UK only LHR is at capacity all the time and LGW at some peak times.
No, the way forward with APD is either a low flat rate as in Ireland, or better still, scrap it entirely as in Denmark and the Netherlands.
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Basically Bristol Airport are thinking of all reasons why the devolvement of APD should not be given to the Welsh Government.
Basically for the first time in a very long time Bristol Airport seem to be concerened. And they should be as this will have an impact if certain routes are also given variable rates.
As TwinAisle states IT operators at Bristol & Birmingham may switch capacity to Cardiff Airport to make more money. It may effect Thomson longhaul from Bristol as we know passengers are willing to travel and may also impact any future plans for any future longhaul at Bristol.
I am concerned however that the Welsh Government may drag their heels in acting upon these recomendations and by that time we may see variable APD amongst regional airports.
This is another article found today - Airport bosses criticise unfair tax help for rival
Basically for the first time in a very long time Bristol Airport seem to be concerened. And they should be as this will have an impact if certain routes are also given variable rates.
As TwinAisle states IT operators at Bristol & Birmingham may switch capacity to Cardiff Airport to make more money. It may effect Thomson longhaul from Bristol as we know passengers are willing to travel and may also impact any future plans for any future longhaul at Bristol.
I am concerned however that the Welsh Government may drag their heels in acting upon these recomendations and by that time we may see variable APD amongst regional airports.
This is another article found today - Airport bosses criticise unfair tax help for rival
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There is nothing BRS can do about this in all honesty. The devolving of tax reducing powers is nothing to do with law/jurisdictions etc, just a simple fact of devolving Wales from Westminster for a more local approach, to help solve local problems.
We could argue that BRS has distorted the South Wales market over the last decade with EZY and FR, attracting so many over the bridge, so they cannot moan about CWL potentially being more attractive to long haul operators. But, obviously, they are going to moan, because at the end of the day they are potentially losing business. Simple, stop incentivising South Wales agents to switch sell BRS over CWL, to make it a fair playing field !
We could argue that BRS has distorted the South Wales market over the last decade with EZY and FR, attracting so many over the bridge, so they cannot moan about CWL potentially being more attractive to long haul operators. But, obviously, they are going to moan, because at the end of the day they are potentially losing business. Simple, stop incentivising South Wales agents to switch sell BRS over CWL, to make it a fair playing field !
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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We could argue that BRS has distorted the South Wales market over the last decade with EZY and FR, attracting so many over the bridge
I'm not at all sure that Bristol Airport has incentivised agents not to sell Cardiff. At the end of the day, the airport does not sell seats, or holidays. If the airlines are doing any differential pricing, that is an issue for them.
Oh, and you'll find that devolution of tax powers certainly is a legal matter; it will almost certainly need an Act of Parliament...
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well air guru. hope you have somtthing to back up in what you said in youre last post. with comments like that on here it could be considered as libel. think you should consider what you post on here before you submit post.its been a long day being it thanksgiving here.
Last edited by yeo valley; 23rd Nov 2012 at 05:21. Reason: should read libel not slander
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I have been reading this thread with interest over the past few months.It is similar to some other regional airport threads.The hope that things can change to stem the steady decline of passenger numbers. The latest hope is that APD reduction will be the White Knight riding to the rescue.The question that needs to be asked is who or where are these long haul airlines waiting to come to Cardiff to transport the locals across the oceans to distant lands.Cardiff Airport cannot get the short haul airlines to use the airport hence the steady decline in passenger numbers through the terminal.Do you honestly believe that APD reduction will be enough to entice long haul airlines to use Cardiff even if the Welsh Assembly do get the powers to vary the APD? I hope that I am proved wrong but I believe a lot of people are going to be disappointed.
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Yeo Valley - the only thing I'd take issue with in your post is that the potential offence by AG is libel, not slander....
ILS32 - the answer to your question about who the long haul carriers are that will consider a move to come to Cardiff if Welsh APD is varied is simple - pretty much all of them from BRS and BHX. IT is a very different game to scheduled.
TA
ILS32 - the answer to your question about who the long haul carriers are that will consider a move to come to Cardiff if Welsh APD is varied is simple - pretty much all of them from BRS and BHX. IT is a very different game to scheduled.
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Surely if ADP is devolved to Wales then BRS would be able to apply for a similar set up as BFS? I mean BFS has no or little ADP added to its longhaul flights due to the proximity of DUB so surely a precedent has now been set for BRS should Wales get the power to lower or scrap it?
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An interesting point, BY.
I can well imagine Bristol would argue that one; at the very least, that could be a nail in APD's coffin. Here's hoping....
TA
I can well imagine Bristol would argue that one; at the very least, that could be a nail in APD's coffin. Here's hoping....
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As I see it, Bristol has every right to get annoyed with this. Cardiff Airport has failed due to systematic poor management, poor investment and a limited catchment area. Forget diluted borders....this is a private company we're talking about that is in direct competition with Bristol - and they could be about to get a significant tax break as a reward for their incompetence.
Bristol Airprot (and BHX for that matter) has generated countless millions for the whole area's economy (Wales included) by capitalising on being successful, yet they would be heavily penalised in all of this - thats a kick in the teeth for their good management and investment!
To put it another way, would the Welsh Assembley also reduce taxes for Tesco, as the Sainsburys up the road is doing that much better?? Its absolute tosh, and an insult to anyone that pays their share of tax to the state.
Bristol Airprot (and BHX for that matter) has generated countless millions for the whole area's economy (Wales included) by capitalising on being successful, yet they would be heavily penalised in all of this - thats a kick in the teeth for their good management and investment!
To put it another way, would the Welsh Assembley also reduce taxes for Tesco, as the Sainsburys up the road is doing that much better?? Its absolute tosh, and an insult to anyone that pays their share of tax to the state.
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BRS will not be heavily penalised. This is only long haul APD that would in reality only affect their Cancun and Orlando services. As for DUB -BFS, the arguement was different as the tax goes into a different pot in a different nation. Therefore the precedent is much different.
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bcn_boy,
It's not only long haul, it's non EU, not sure how the likes of Norway and Switzerland fair on this one, but it might also impact upon BRS's KLM, Air France etc. long haul feeder services where if the punter is connecting in less than 24 hours then 'rip off' APD applies.
However ... as has been said many a time, BRS and CWL have two totally different catchments and with regards to BHX ... are the likes of KLM, Air France, Sabena, Swiss, SAS, Lufthansa etc. likely to relocate their services from BHX to CWL? ... Never in a hundred years!
It's not only long haul, it's non EU, not sure how the likes of Norway and Switzerland fair on this one, but it might also impact upon BRS's KLM, Air France etc. long haul feeder services where if the punter is connecting in less than 24 hours then 'rip off' APD applies.
However ... as has been said many a time, BRS and CWL have two totally different catchments and with regards to BHX ... are the likes of KLM, Air France, Sabena, Swiss, SAS, Lufthansa etc. likely to relocate their services from BHX to CWL? ... Never in a hundred years!
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I wouldn't say relocation Phileas however KLM may switch some capacity but may not be segnificant. What TwinAisle has suggested is when it comes to the IT market it's a totally different kettle of fish.
Thomson was once very pro CWL however seemed to be that when the Thomson / First Choice merger took place there was a shift in focus and longhaul also switched to BRS. Of course i'm unsure if this was simply a coincidence.
If an airline could make over £10,000 (rough guess) additional a flight from CWL on longhaul per flight after scrapping apd in Wales wouldn't they consider a switch? Passengers travel a long way by car or transport to travel on longhaul IT flights.
A recent HM Revenue & Customs report has suggested that BRS could lose 25% and 30% passengers as a result of the devolving of APD to Wales. It also suggests that by 2020 Cardiff Airport may have 3.4 million passengers. But the same report also suggests that Cardiff Airport only handles 0.5m passengers per year so the accuracy of the report could be questioned. (But Bristol CEO is currently quoting these figures and it could take up to 5 years to come into force)
Thomson was once very pro CWL however seemed to be that when the Thomson / First Choice merger took place there was a shift in focus and longhaul also switched to BRS. Of course i'm unsure if this was simply a coincidence.
If an airline could make over £10,000 (rough guess) additional a flight from CWL on longhaul per flight after scrapping apd in Wales wouldn't they consider a switch? Passengers travel a long way by car or transport to travel on longhaul IT flights.
A recent HM Revenue & Customs report has suggested that BRS could lose 25% and 30% passengers as a result of the devolving of APD to Wales. It also suggests that by 2020 Cardiff Airport may have 3.4 million passengers. But the same report also suggests that Cardiff Airport only handles 0.5m passengers per year so the accuracy of the report could be questioned. (But Bristol CEO is currently quoting these figures and it could take up to 5 years to come into force)
Last edited by mathers_wales_uk; 23rd Nov 2012 at 15:14.
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Mathers,
From personal experience I can tell you that BHX's catchment area spreads as far east as 'Rushden & Diamonds', as far north as mid point to MAN, covers mid Wales also and mid point to BRS and, I guess, LHR.
When I was living in Rushden and then Telford and then Coalbrookdale the likes of KLM, Swiss, Lufty, Frog Air and SAS were attracting my business from/to Brum ... go figure what chance they'd have of attracting my business from/to CWL?
Brum, as far as aviation is concerned anyway, is England & Wales third city and that's not about to change anytime soon.
And please don't think that I'm anti CWL, I worked at CWL in the 80/90's and I only sold my CF62 postcode house last year.
From personal experience I can tell you that BHX's catchment area spreads as far east as 'Rushden & Diamonds', as far north as mid point to MAN, covers mid Wales also and mid point to BRS and, I guess, LHR.
When I was living in Rushden and then Telford and then Coalbrookdale the likes of KLM, Swiss, Lufty, Frog Air and SAS were attracting my business from/to Brum ... go figure what chance they'd have of attracting my business from/to CWL?
Brum, as far as aviation is concerned anyway, is England & Wales third city and that's not about to change anytime soon.
And please don't think that I'm anti CWL, I worked at CWL in the 80/90's and I only sold my CF62 postcode house last year.
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Nobody really knows what will happen Phileas and the likelyhood of this happening in a quick enough time fram for Cardiff Airport to get the advantage before possibly regional variances of APD will be slim.
Aviation group calls for air passenger duty to be devolved to Wales sooner rather than later - click to read article
Aviation group calls for air passenger duty to be devolved to Wales sooner rather than later - click to read article
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And which 'Aviation group' would that be Mathers or are we all supposed to pretend that we are stupid and it is not a bunch of 'Reggie Spotters' that you are personally involved with?
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There's so much discussion that just goes round in circles. Isn't the hard truth that CWL is in the wrong place for an airport of the size it wants to be. If BRS were to go through harder times, I'm not convinced that much of the business wouldn't end up at BHX.