Airlines, Airports & Routes Topics about airports, routes and airline business.


Old 31st Oct 2012, 17:34
  #681 (permalink)  
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i learned to day that the cwl sfb flights next summer are pulled.
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Old 31st Oct 2012, 22:04
  #682 (permalink)  
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Along with the road built from the M4 however, you need to upgrade the A/F aids, this might help a bit,the closure of Filton as an active airfield makes this available, much of the current equipment is being put up for sale:

BAE System's Filton Airfield, Air Traffic Control Systems - All Lots - GoIndustry DoveBid
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Old 1st Nov 2012, 10:41
  #683 (permalink)  
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Pug is right - why do I fly from Heathrow? Choice, price, frequent flyer program, you name it.

I am quite surprised that anyone is taking this seriously - clearly, airline economics have passed them by. The whole point of a hub is that enough people will use it to create enough traffic to make it work, both in terms of terminal traffic (which is going to be hard, since there really is not that much demand for most of these routes in the South West of England, South Wales) and in terms of interline traffic.

You don't just 'create' a hub - you need to get a very major player - a VERY major player - to come and cornerstone it, or alternatively get a whole host of network carriers in there.

Say they get TAM for South America, Etihad for the Middle/Far East, KLM is already there for Europe (although if they lose all their connecting traffic they may not be), and say Kenya Airways for all points south. Is that enough? No, no where near enough. Close down Bristol, Gloucester? That would help, but do you imagine that that would be possible, even with a barrage? Not a cat in hell's chance.

Pie in the sky, I'm afraid.

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Old 1st Nov 2012, 10:46
  #684 (permalink)  
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Heathrow idea is so far fetched it will never happen! The airport would need complete rebuild and airfield is just to badly designed for parking of heavy a/c.
Limited air bridges, small departures lounge, crap security check point. Dream on people.
If the basic operations prove testing for cwl, this is like running in a egg and spoon one day and an ironman the next.
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Old 1st Nov 2012, 12:25
  #685 (permalink)  

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CWL as international hub

I've read through the newspaper report more than once and the proposal is so light on detail as to be irrelevant at this stage. There is talk about a more detailed submission in due course but do the proponents already have a sort of 'back of fag packet' idea that they hope to translate into an arguable case?

There so many imponderables anyway. The road and rail infrastructure would clearly have to come from the public purse and the Severn Barrage is so controversial and comes in many versions that there is no certainty it will ever be built or, if it is, whether the design will allow road or rail passage across it.

But who is to foot the bill for what would be an immense sum to transform CWL into a major gateway airport? The current owners seem reluctant to do more than apply the odd lick of paint.

Is this something else the scheme supporters hope will come largely from public funding or do they they themselves intend to try to gain control of the airport and invest a huge amount of their own money?

Even if all the funding could be found and all the connecting and airport infrastructure built I'm still not sure what a Western Gateway means. Is it primarily intended for travellers to and from the south-west corner of Great Britain or as a full-blown alternative to Heathrow?

If the former, as TwinAisle (a man who knows a thing or two about airlines and airports from first-hand experience over many years) points out, a gateway aimed primarily at south-west Britain would not provide the numbers of passengers for even an emasculated LHR-type operation, and just a few long-haul flights would still send the majority of travellers to LHR of necessity.

If the idea is to be a sort of Heathrow overflow the suggestion made in another post that reverse principle applies is difficult to sustain. CAA and other surveys show that somewhere between 70% and 80% of LHR (and LGW for that matter) passengers originate or terminate in the South East. A tiny fraction of this figure does so in south-west Britain. This means that many, many more travellers would have to make their way from a CWL gateway to the South East than currently do so from LHR/LGW to the South West/South Wales.

In any case, if a major, or at least an important, gateway is needed away from the South East then Birmingham Airport seems the obvious contender. It's already an option for South Wales/South West travellers and it possesses rail and pretty decent road connectivity with a runway that's being lengthened and, according to its CEO, the ability to immediately double its current 9 mppa.

I really do find it hard to take the group's proposal seriously at this point though I do look forward to studying their worked-up, business case when it reaches the public domain.

Last edited by MerchantVenturer; 1st Nov 2012 at 12:29. Reason: typo
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Old 1st Nov 2012, 12:36
  #686 (permalink)  
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As someone, not so long ago, previously posted ..... "Only in this thread"
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Old 1st Nov 2012, 13:17
  #687 (permalink)  
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an investment of around £70m would be needed to lengthen and widen Cardiff’s existing runway.
45 metres width not enough???

Why would we expect a massive increase in pax through Cardiff?

I would have thought that the best way to increase visitor numbers would be to put in a decent road link and then turn the whole thing into the biggest IKEA in the world. That'd create jobs.

With fuel prices going through the roof I've told my son he is unlikely to get a job as a pilot when he is old enough due to the way the industry is progressing. What will happen to the industry when even Ryanair pax will not foot the escalating bill for jet fuel? How would you get your £70M back?

Last edited by blue up; 1st Nov 2012 at 13:17.
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Old 1st Nov 2012, 13:51
  #688 (permalink)  
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Excuse me for stating the obvious but 'jet fuel', as you refer to it, comes from the same crude product as does moped fuel, car fuel, bus fuel etc. etc. etc.

Your son, by the sound of it, is going to have bl00dy sore feet!
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Old 1st Nov 2012, 18:56
  #689 (permalink)  
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I doubt that in 30 years time the price of fuel will be less, what with more people using more cars and all of us chasing stocks of petro products. Not so much the fuel running out as us being outbid on it. Remember during the fuel strike a few years ago when fuel shot up to 65p per litre??? What is it now?
There must surely come a point in time when travelling to Mexico for a week in the sun will become so expensive that we give it up as an excessively expensive luxury. A bit like getting bladdered on a Friday night has already become.
Spending £70M on an airport seems (to me at least) a bit like buying up all the cigarette factories at a knock-down price in that it may seem a bargain in the short term but you are going to need to get a return from an ever shrinking and fragile market. How many pax do you need to fly to service a £70M expenditure?

I didn't take a holiday abroad this year for cost reasons and I'm a Cardiff pilot with Thomson.

Note. Thomson sized airlines spend the thick end of $500M per year on jet fuel.

Last edited by blue up; 1st Nov 2012 at 18:58.
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Old 1st Nov 2012, 20:13
  #690 (permalink)  
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Mr Evans said a “build it and they will come” strategy should be adopted at Cardiff Airport.
perhaps a study tour of Spain might be useful...
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Old 1st Nov 2012, 21:58
  #691 (permalink)  
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Words of wisdom from Merchant Venturer (of course), nothing wrong with pipe dreams but sorry Guys listen to those who have been there - it just isn't going to happen in Cardiff for now.
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Old 1st Nov 2012, 22:05
  #692 (permalink)  
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Cardiff will never learn. It never has. No point whatsoever in paying out stupid sums of money that it can't afford to waste to offer improvements to nobody.

Need a good deal amount of airlines and I'm afraid it fails to attract them. Big problem is the poor catchment area and the 2 biggest brands down the road at BRS who offer flights generally daily to most places across Europe.

Face it, the airport is stuffed and doomed to remain a quiet seasonal airport for the future unless someone drops a bomb on BRS. That's the facts and regardless what anyone says it isn't changing anytime soon this decade, I'll bet my entire career earnings on it!
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Old 8th Nov 2012, 15:31
  #693 (permalink)  
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thomas cook to orlando sanford

looking on cardiff wiki thomas cook is showing orlando sanford and done the search on thomas cook website no dates loaded yet tho

Last edited by WELSHGUY40; 8th Nov 2012 at 15:32.
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Old 8th Nov 2012, 20:04
  #694 (permalink)  
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Thomas Cook are doing a 1-off SFB in March, i think for Easter holidays. It's been on sale for several months. Hopefully its not too late to pick up where Monarch left. That's if the route is viable of course!
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Old 8th Nov 2012, 23:17
  #695 (permalink)  
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the route cwl-sfb yield wise has been shocking ever since the travel city days (as a direct result of theyre 'pile them high, sell um cheap' philosophy').
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Old 9th Nov 2012, 08:36
  #696 (permalink)  
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The greatest mistake CWL management made was loosing Ryanair. Had they kept them CWL would now be a real counter weight to BRS. Politicians and planning don't work. Goggle Ciudad Airport in Spain as a stunning example of political build and they will come thinking. Regional airports have expanded because of low cost airlines. They struggle to attract and hold full service legacy carriers. If you removed easyjet and Ryanair from Bristol there isn't much left. AF, KLM and EI etc. The Lo-co's didn't come for the design and architecture at BRS they came because of good contractual terms and an affluent catchment area. Investing £250 million is peanuts, that'll get you some new toilets, an additional airbridge and some new baggage carts. I would love to see a Gulf airline and/or CO/UA back at BRS, but it won't happen. The UK is a small island with room for one hub airport. That hub is yet to be built and it should be in South East. CWL suffered because BMI Baby repelled other Lo-Co's whilst not investing to make it successful. They need to be realistic and that means attracting Jet2 or somebody else to have a real crack at building a budget network. No it isn't glamorous, but if the likes of Birmingham and Manchester struggle to hold a limited full service network Cardiff has no chance. Passengers will be attracted by a competitively priced ticket to a destination they want to fly to. How many people fly to LAX from Wales and the West each week? Not enough to fill a 737, let alone a 777 on a daily basis. However there are enough passengers who want to fly to Faro, Malaga etc. Focus on what people want and not a vanity project. If politicians become involved CWL will simply become a folly to Carwyn Jones' ego.
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Old 9th Nov 2012, 10:58
  #697 (permalink)  
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I have to take issue with some of that, Bristolflyer.

I don't think Cardiff management did 'lose Ryanair'. Ryanair, like all other well run operations, moves to make the most of its market. I don't think for a single second that there is anything, short of throwing crazy amounts of subsidy at them, that would have made Ryanair say no to BRS, and yes to CWL.

We do have a hub airport - it's just outside Hounslow. It's not perfect, but has become the nation's hub airport since that is where the majority of the market is. Improve it, yes, add more runways hell yes - but move it? No.

bmibaby certainly did not repel other carriers. There were more than enough destinations left uncovered at CWL even during baby's peak times for someone else to get in there, and the airport certainly encouraged that. When baby was on the wane, they would have been easy to wipe out of Cardiff, had another operator been so inclined. What stopped this, and in the end did for baby at Cardiff was the massive seasonality and relatively small size of the local market.

The same is true of Jet2 - why should they come to Cardiff? They are doing pretty well from what I gather where they are, and to take a punt on Cardiff - which to many outsiders is seen as a graveyard for routes and airlines - is not something that I would advise them to do... and that's what I do for a living!

But you are bang on the money re the vanity projects, and for warning about the cancerous effect that politicians tend to have on the scene....


Last edited by TwinAisle; 9th Nov 2012 at 10:59.
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Old 12th Nov 2012, 04:56
  #698 (permalink)  
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Can anyone shed any light on the following please?

I was told yesterday that Easy Jet will be operating the MAH flight on behalf of TCX next summer out of CWL, how true could this be?
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Old 12th Nov 2012, 07:46
  #699 (permalink)  
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I think this gossip very unlikely to be true as I believe TCX will only utilise seats on EZY flights where they're already based, i.e. BRS.

As for the MAH, it will be operated by TCX on Friday mornings for summer 2013.

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Old 12th Nov 2012, 12:15
  #700 (permalink)  
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Thank you Fanrailuk

Thought I would ask the question to see how true this was
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