Virgin Atlantic

[CabinCrewe]

most on here could have told you 2 years ago that this was never going to last. But pride, ego, slot grabbing and "getting at" BA seem to carry more weight than obvious business sense. Would appear that business sense now is coming from DL than anyone internal at VS....

[PAXboy]

Misread dates. apologies. I agree that, at the time of launch, it seemed too little too late in the mature domestic market, sorry it has not worked.

When I saw Sir MB hold out too long for his company to go where he wanted it to go - I thought it a prime example of pride before a fall.

Whether Sir RB was the one who prevented a fuller role of Singapore, we will probably never know. I'm sure that there are some who claim to know but all I recall was much drawn out argy-bargy and Singapore eventually walking away. I sit to be corrected on that.

But, quite apart from Delta's machinations, the dire financial situation for the USA and Europe means that more consolidation will have to happen. In the UK, there are many reasons why IAG has, and will, prevail.

[rog747]

Hi Paxboy

SRB may have walked too far in SMB footsteps

re the SQ tie-up that never was -
VS and SQ never managed to exchange or join up the dots on anything much
that was noticeable nor seemingly beneficial to either.
SRB did not lose out though on the deal.

likewise the same happened with VS and Virgin Oz,
no links and in fact Voz is now partnered with Eithad via AUH.

No code shares on VS from LHR with Voz via SFO, LAX or DXB (or HKG)

so much for joining the dots and brands for seamless travel

[goldeneye]

I do wonder if VS & VA will work closer together now. Giving that DL and VA code share on flights to Australia.

[Epsomdog]

It was 3 years/6 IATA seasons so they will be surrendering the remedy slots to IAG. Even if they lasted the full 6 seasons, they would be grandfathered into only using the slots for any European route, Moscow, Riyadh or Cairo.

As it stands, the only slots they would have to play with are the MAN slots.

Slots won't go to IAG. If Little Red walk away from EDI ABZ, slots, will default to EI to continue those routes.

[Capetonian]

Now, I do understand the problems of doing business in South Africa but if they are still having ticket fraud that is their fault.

Couldn't agree more. All airlines doing business in ZA (and in fact in most of Africa, Nigeria particularly being the worst) have to contend with this and it happens to be an area in which I have some professional knowledge, on revenue protection and integrity, and let me add, not as a fraudster! I've also, in a personal capacity, been a victim of credit card fraud whereby my card was used for fraudulent purchases on flysaa.com. I was able to follow the trail and pick up exactly what was done and how, and was quite honestly shocked at how insecure the procedures that allowed this to happen were.

There are plenty of ways of avoiding fraud, never 100% effective, but the combination of inadequate staff training, procedures not documented and upheld, and bullying overbearing fraudsters at the ticket desks is always going to end in tears.

[Ringwayman]

If Little Red walk away from EDI ABZ, slots, will default to EI to continue those routes.

Thought VS were awarded the slots and not EI. Who uses them on there behalf shouldn't matter?

[Cyrano]

Originally Posted by Epsomdog

Slots won't go to IAG. If Little Red walk away from EDI ABZ, slots, will default to EI to continue those routes.

Are you suggesting this on the basis that EI is the wet-lease operator or on the basis that EI was also in the bidding for the slots themselves originally?

I'd have thought (though I am open to being corrected) that if they walk away, the trustees will look for new bids. Could we see easyjet appearing at LHR?

[Epsomdog]

Thought VS were awarded the slots and not EI. Who uses them on there behalf shouldn't matter?

They were remedy slots, designed to ensure competition on the ABZ/EDI/LHR routes. VS were awarded them on condition that they operated the routes. Part of the EI/VS deal set up for the Little Red operation, states EI will get the option to operate the services if VS walk away.

[BasilBush]

That's interesting Epsomdog - do you have a source for that statement?

I assume that the competition authorities will decide where the slots end up, although the fact that EI was the only other serious bidder for the remedy slots means that it is pretty likely that EI will end up with them. But I imagine there is some process to go through - it isn't quite as simple as VS just handing them to EI?

EDIT

My reading of the original decision is that EI don't get a look in. If VS 'misuse' the transferred slots (eg by not operating on the remedy routes) then the slots are returned to IAG. VS have no legal right to offer the slots to anyone else. Moreover, there doesn't seem to be an opportunity for a second bite at the cherry by other prospective carriers. But maybe I've missed something in the more obscure parts of the decision.

[Yellow Sun]

In my view, the problems here date from the unwilling approach of Sir Michael Bishop to go into parternship with BMI. This ultimately led his airline falling into the hands of the very company he strove so long to avoid, BA.

When I saw Sir MB hold out too long for his company to go where he wanted it to go - I thought it a prime example of pride before a fall.

The object of the exercise was for SMB to leave the building with the largest possible amount of cash. He really couldn't have cared less where it came from. In the period leading up to his departure the aim was to ensure that others subsidised the operation through the ECA until such time as he could exercise his put option with DLH.

He was a very successful businessman; not an empire builder; and probably has more in common with Michael O'Leary than anyone else in the industry.

YS

[Fairdealfrank]

I'd have thought (though I am open to being corrected) that if they walk away, the trustees will look for new bids. Could we see easyjet appearing at LHR?

Possibly, but U2 don't do through-ticketing. Could see U2 at LHR chasing business pax and taking on BA if and when it is expanded.

[PAXboy]

Yellow Sun Thank you, very interesting. So he was one of the 'biggest pile of money wins and ya-boo-sucks' brigade? There are many of them around. As an outsider, it is my perception that Branson is not one of those - but I know he has plenty of detractors who would argue otherwise.

Overall, the collection of Virgin travel comapnies (including the holiday tours ones, hot air balloons and so on) have missed a great opportunity. They could have formed a network that was not a big 'HQ' telling everyone what to do - but a sort of 'Confederation' and retained their local independence.

Too late now.

[LNIDA]

The only other airline that could make the remedy slots work and be effective against IAG on internal UK flights into LHR would be easy jet, although they may have to tweak their baggage allowance to take self connecting traffic even then i would suspect it would do little more than break even unless they could get a deals with non IAG airlines at LHR, the application of APD to connecting long haul flights add ££'s to ticket costs that you can avoid by self connecting at say AMS

[rog747]

easy jet has long maintained that LHR is not on their re-mit

costs and logistics are enormous which is not in EZY's mission

cannot see EZY ever at LHR tbh

I can see DL taking VS 100% or IAG picking up the roadkill of LR (oh the irony)

[wallp]

Earlier this year Carolyn McCall wouldn't rule out ever flying from Heathrow

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articl...+heathrow.html

Whilst its unlikely, never say never.


As for Virgin Little Red, was it simply bad business logic that led to them competing on these domestic routes. I must confess I always found it strange why they thought Aberdeen would be a good route and given Virgin's rail connections between London & Manchester, why effectively compete with themselves? The one route I thought might stand a chance is LHR - Edinburgh but it seems not?

[T250]

The EDI route was always the best route for LR to/from LHR. Loads were typically in the 70-130 pax region.

Unfortunately MAN and ABZ routes were astonishingly low, ABZ regularly no more than 40-50 pax per flight and MAN no more than 60-70 pax per flight.

Obviously anyone can see this wasn't sustainable!

[Joe Curry]

I thought might stand a chance is Edinburgh

Perhaps at least one long haul direct (Mumbai or Delhi) might work?

[OntimeexceptACARS]

Joe, if you mean from EDI to Mumbai or Delhi, I can't see how, where is the market? I understand the largest Indian community in Scotland isn't in Edinburgh, but even then its doubtful if a route could be supported.

IMO Virgin's best way forward, certainly in Scotland, is a part or full week based aircraft, developed like Manchester, with MCO LAS JFK BGI as destinations. The 744 is too big, the 789 might be ideal, in a LGW style configuration. JFK would link with Delta's network.

Though sadly, I think this may never happen given the current uncertainty.

[Skipness One Echo]

Perhaps at least one long haul direct (Mumbai or Delhi) might work?

It's not "what might work", and this example is fairly unlikely given VS just dropped LHR-BOM which fed onto exisiting US flights, of which EDI has no VS or DL long haul. Imagine the scenario where a code sharing, revenue sharing DL/VS transatlantic joint venture is deciding where to place their new multi million $ Boeings. Scotland-India would be so far off the list as to be off the page as it's not a core market or even part of the JV, added to the fact that Edinburgh doesn't have much of an Indian community.