MANCHESTER - 8
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Ummmm might be better in the ATC section BUT
I was coming through MAN yesterday and was surprised to hear that ATC are no longer allowed to use the points of the compass for reference. (Their own words of explanation to a very surprised Thomson pilot). Hence the Thomson 767 on 215 was cleared to push and face "er...the car park on your left" and Thomas Cook flight was told to "push to face er...Stockport?" which worked as I think he was based crew. How is this going to work with the Singapore or China Airlines crews?
"Push and start to face Wythenshawe????" Does anyone know what the reason for this might be and is it a "local rule for local people"? How can one get "push to face East" that badly wrong that this is somehow better?
"Push and start to face Wythenshawe????" Does anyone know what the reason for this might be and is it a "local rule for local people"? How can one get "push to face East" that badly wrong that this is somehow better?
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Grrr, don't get me started on this. It is yet another version of convoluted and confusing phraseology that only seems to happen at Manchester. You may also be surprised to know that controllers can't use the phrase "give way" as apparently no one knows its meaning???????
So we have controllers saying "hold short of B, after the Dash 8 taxi to etc etc" and the often foreign crew reply "roger, give way". I thought no one knew what it meant.
With regards to the push back direction nonsense, controllers can no longer issue a compass point because of a couple of incorrect pushbacks. So instead of picking up individual push back crews we now must confuse Air China and everybody else.
I issued a push back recently, "push back approved, non standard to face err, errr, errrrrrr (trying to think of something to face other than the very dangerous north), errrr to face the other aircraft that is pushing" How very professional.
So we have controllers saying "hold short of B, after the Dash 8 taxi to etc etc" and the often foreign crew reply "roger, give way". I thought no one knew what it meant.
With regards to the push back direction nonsense, controllers can no longer issue a compass point because of a couple of incorrect pushbacks. So instead of picking up individual push back crews we now must confuse Air China and everybody else.
I issued a push back recently, "push back approved, non standard to face err, errr, errrrrrr (trying to think of something to face other than the very dangerous north), errrr to face the other aircraft that is pushing" How very professional.
Join Date: Jul 2004
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ATC and push back terminology
'Give Way' was dropped for very good reasons:
1. It is not a standard phrase in ICAO radiotelephony, but had crept into usage at Manchester and probably other UK airports.
2. The term 'Give Way' implies that you may proceed when you think your path is clear of other traffic (as in the sense it is applied at a road junction), whereas ATC were applying it with specific reference to other traffic. This caused misunderstandings with some non-English pilots and was a contributory factor in two notable taxiway collisions at Manchester. I recommend reading the AAIB reports.
Attempts are underway to reduce the number of incorrect pushback maneouvres. One factor is the difficulty tug crews have interpreting the compass points. The solution on trial is to replace compass points with easily identifiable landmarks e.g. 'West Gate security post'. There should be no 'ers' because these are written down on the pushback procedure sheet wherever applicable. Need to read ATC Supplementary Instructions, perhaps.
1. It is not a standard phrase in ICAO radiotelephony, but had crept into usage at Manchester and probably other UK airports.
2. The term 'Give Way' implies that you may proceed when you think your path is clear of other traffic (as in the sense it is applied at a road junction), whereas ATC were applying it with specific reference to other traffic. This caused misunderstandings with some non-English pilots and was a contributory factor in two notable taxiway collisions at Manchester. I recommend reading the AAIB reports.
Attempts are underway to reduce the number of incorrect pushback maneouvres. One factor is the difficulty tug crews have interpreting the compass points. The solution on trial is to replace compass points with easily identifiable landmarks e.g. 'West Gate security post'. There should be no 'ers' because these are written down on the pushback procedure sheet wherever applicable. Need to read ATC Supplementary Instructions, perhaps.
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The solution on trial is to replace compass points with easily identifiable landmarks e.g. 'West Gate security post'.
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Skipness,
The way it works at MAN, the pushback procedures are distributed to tug crews, they are also held by ATC for reference. A 'standard' pushback is assumed unless otherwise directed by ATC. This means that ATC do not have to read out the instruction verbally, they just give a clearance to push and expect the standard written manoevere to take place. The tug driver reads this off his sheet. The pilot will in all probability not know where the aircraft is going because the procedures are not published in the AIP. The onus is on the tug driver to carry out the correct manoeuvre, he/she is after all the only person who can steer the aircraft at this time. The procedures are usually published on www.magworld.co.uk\airfieldoperations, but I couldn't find the file just now.
The way it works at MAN, the pushback procedures are distributed to tug crews, they are also held by ATC for reference. A 'standard' pushback is assumed unless otherwise directed by ATC. This means that ATC do not have to read out the instruction verbally, they just give a clearance to push and expect the standard written manoevere to take place. The tug driver reads this off his sheet. The pilot will in all probability not know where the aircraft is going because the procedures are not published in the AIP. The onus is on the tug driver to carry out the correct manoeuvre, he/she is after all the only person who can steer the aircraft at this time. The procedures are usually published on www.magworld.co.uk\airfieldoperations, but I couldn't find the file just now.
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As we welcomed in the New Year a fleet of Chinese lanterns launched from around Altrincham and headed for Manchester Airport - about 50 of them over a period of an hour or so. Very pretty, but are these deemed a hazard? If I was intending to land I would have been very concerned.
Does anyone know about the legality of these things? I've a feeling that they are banned in Germany, for instance.
Does anyone know about the legality of these things? I've a feeling that they are banned in Germany, for instance.
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Thanks Roverman, very interesting. I have always had the utmost respect for ATC, crew and the ground staff, it just surprised me in that it seemed so bizarre. Cheers!
Last edited by Skipness One Echo; 1st Jan 2011 at 22:07.
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skip one echo
I think your example of Taipei crews and pushback instructions is a bit of a red herring, where they park 99.5% of pushbacks are standard as roverman said.
BTW new pushback procedures are something else we controllers have to put up with. once again we have to comply with the lowest common denominator .
I think your example of Taipei crews and pushback instructions is a bit of a red herring, where they park 99.5% of pushbacks are standard as roverman said.
BTW new pushback procedures are something else we controllers have to put up with. once again we have to comply with the lowest common denominator .
Last edited by opnot; 1st Jan 2011 at 18:59.
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Chinese Lanterns
Not sure about the legality about launching chinese lanterns but recently I read the instructions on a packet in a local superstore and they clearly stated " not to be launched within 5 miles of an airport ", it went on about other things which included "only in calm clear weather and winds below 5 mph.
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Re- Ummmm might be better in the ATC section BUT
Hey Skipness, you were nearly correct, it is / was the wrong forum to bring up this subject, judging by answers received.
It should really have been placed in the " Jet Blast forum " under the
title Total Bollocks.
What Manchester does today, nobody does tomorrow !!
It should really have been placed in the " Jet Blast forum " under the
title Total Bollocks.
What Manchester does today, nobody does tomorrow !!
Last edited by Adola69; 1st Jan 2011 at 23:12.
The way it works at MAN, the pushback procedures are distributed to tug crews, they are also held by ATC for reference. A 'standard' pushback is assumed unless otherwise directed by ATC. This means that ATC do not have to read out the instruction verbally, they just give a clearance to push and expect the standard written manoevere to take place. The tug driver reads this off his sheet. The pilot will in all probability not know where the aircraft is going because the procedures are not published in the AIP. The onus is on the tug driver to carry out the correct manoeuvre, he/she is after all the only person who can steer the aircraft at this time. The procedures are usually published on www.magworld.co.uk\airfieldoperations, but I couldn't find the file just now.
However, if it's a non standard push then ATC still need to go through the flt crew, not direct to local staff. If the flt crew are from parts foreign, as they often are, they will be faced with the most bizarre set of instructions to pass on.
I work at the airport and have done for nearly thirty years. I can tell you where East is, but Wythenshaw? Nope.
A very silly and kneejerk reaction by MAN, makes us all look stupid.
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Turin I M SHOCKED BY YOUR COMMENTS
Turin
You have never heard of Wythenshawe after 30 Years at the Airport.
Shame on you the Metropolis of the world and never heard of by you.
You must be one of a small number of Airport Employees that hasn t
Its the epy-centre of the Universe there is nothing you cannot get or buy in Shangri La
When you have a spare few hours will arrange a visit around the Kingdom for you with visits to The Happy Man// The Firbank// The Mountain Ash to name a few
90 percent of Airport workers have either lived there or originate from the Mecca (Including me)
A Weekend on the Costa del Woodhouse Park visiting its many culinary establishments is not to be missed and you dont need a Passport
Again Shame on You
Gerry
N B Where do you Live as you must have to Transit or pass near to
Withy
You have never heard of Wythenshawe after 30 Years at the Airport.
Shame on you the Metropolis of the world and never heard of by you.
You must be one of a small number of Airport Employees that hasn t
Its the epy-centre of the Universe there is nothing you cannot get or buy in Shangri La
When you have a spare few hours will arrange a visit around the Kingdom for you with visits to The Happy Man// The Firbank// The Mountain Ash to name a few
90 percent of Airport workers have either lived there or originate from the Mecca (Including me)
A Weekend on the Costa del Woodhouse Park visiting its many culinary establishments is not to be missed and you dont need a Passport
Again Shame on You
Gerry
N B Where do you Live as you must have to Transit or pass near to
Withy
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With the next Aviation Paper threatening to put Governement expansion behind BHX rather than Manchester its time to rally the troops !
Not sure I have heard anything more absurd from a UK governement in a long time !
It's in its formative stages but this really needs stamping on NOW !
There are normally some succinct factual and supportive points made in support of Manchester on here so suggest these are copied on here and also sent to her via email ASAP !
Theresa Villiers MP
Not sure I have heard anything more absurd from a UK governement in a long time !
It's in its formative stages but this really needs stamping on NOW !
There are normally some succinct factual and supportive points made in support of Manchester on here so suggest these are copied on here and also sent to her via email ASAP !
Theresa Villiers MP
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With the next Aviation Paper threatening to put Governement expansion behind BHX rather than Manchester its time to rally the troops !
Suzeman
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Getting better?
I'm a Manc and been critical of the airport at times e.g. slow baggage delivery in T1 taking half as long as the inbound flight, but when we flew in from Switzerland after Xmas and left on New Years Day and everything went smoothly.
Quick immigration, friendly check-in and security staff.
No drama, no hassle.
However, IMO, the test of a good airport comes at peak times e.g. getting the simple things right like having all security lanes open.
Quick immigration, friendly check-in and security staff.
No drama, no hassle.
However, IMO, the test of a good airport comes at peak times e.g. getting the simple things right like having all security lanes open.
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I think this needs to be direct !
If CX are coming into the market surely they have to offer a VERY competitive edge . By Nov 2010 EK will "probably" be at 3 a day !
If CX are coming into the market surely they have to offer a VERY competitive edge . By Nov 2010 EK will "probably" be at 3 a day !
this is a direct flight, and i think it will do great and it will fill. There is enough asian population up north who would book this flight mainly because there is no plane change. Alot people would pay a little more for that reason alone.
From experience a lot people hate changing plane because they may or may not know where they are going in a unfamiliar airport.
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From experience a lot people hate changing plane
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Hi Suzeman...see the major paper headlines re APD tax discussed over Christmas.
APD will be a part of a major review on aviation white paper to be discussed
later this year, hence the media coverage BUT the use and expansion of BHX is being touted as an answer to more runways in the SE. its buried in the small print and pardon the pun, it crept under the radar over Christmas !
APD will be a part of a major review on aviation white paper to be discussed
later this year, hence the media coverage BUT the use and expansion of BHX is being touted as an answer to more runways in the SE. its buried in the small print and pardon the pun, it crept under the radar over Christmas !