DURHAM TEES VALLEY AIRPORT - 5
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Teesside
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Skyman,look at the Operators using the airport today and then look at the ones who have promised the earth and cut and run at the first setback. KLM, Eastern and Thomson are still here. BMI, Ryanair,Wizz and Globespan are not.
Point proven I think.
Point proven I think.
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: peterborough
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teeside
tell you what guys, forget about debating the airport for a while and support the aircraft that is dismantled and waiting to go to the museum with a donation, the last Trident 1c complete G-ARPO, without DTVA it would of gone along time ago. So come on guys show why we like aircraft..
www.savethetrident.org .
www.savethetrident.org .
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Coventry
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aggressive management seeking alternate forms of revenue seem to be the way forward as to consolidating and building upon what remains.
Skyman, good point! Even @BHX, which has excellent public transport, 80% of people arrive by car. The most important thing an airport should do re:transit is ensure that it can, at least, operate a bus service to the nearest major railhead.Beyond that, anything else is just PR guff - until an airport is constrained by a S106 agreement to provide more public transport, why would mgt want to subsidise more buses or a 'metro' 15 mins walk away, when one of the biggest revenue sources is parking?
I hope MME gets more routes soon - something I've never really understood. Here we have BHX v EMA / CVT debates, but we understand CVT currently lacks the infrastructure and has potential runway issues with 737-800s.
The North East should be big enough to support to airports with base operations - of course these will be loco not network carrier but they should still earn the airports enough to be viable. So why does NCL have U2, FR, BE, LS etc - but MME has next to nothing? Surely FR at least are 'ripe' for poaching from NCL?
Join Date: Jan 2006
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"The North East should be big enough to support to airports with base operations - of course these will be loco not network carrier but they should still earn the airports enough to be viable. So why does NCL have U2, FR, BE, LS etc - but MME has next to nothing? Surely FR at least are 'ripe' for poaching from NCL"
Why ?
Northumberland, Durham and N.Yorks are the most rural counties in England. The area may be large, but the population density isn't. Then consider that the Tyne and Wear Conurbation has a popualtion of circa 2.5m vs circa 600k for Tees Valley. Tees valley industry profile is still dominated by large scale process industries (ie overall low average wages), whereas T&W has a much higher proportion of job posts requiring business travel, and higher average income generally for discretionary spending on travel. Business travel demand ex MME to europe and beyond is pretty much covered by KLM capacity. U2 are struggling at NCL and are strategically chasing the business market as much as leisure, so are unlikely to be interested in MME. FR has tried and given up. That really only leaves LS that haven't tried MME, and they are hardly likely to set up services that will partially be in competition with an Ok base at NCL and with fortress Leeds.
Why ?
Northumberland, Durham and N.Yorks are the most rural counties in England. The area may be large, but the population density isn't. Then consider that the Tyne and Wear Conurbation has a popualtion of circa 2.5m vs circa 600k for Tees Valley. Tees valley industry profile is still dominated by large scale process industries (ie overall low average wages), whereas T&W has a much higher proportion of job posts requiring business travel, and higher average income generally for discretionary spending on travel. Business travel demand ex MME to europe and beyond is pretty much covered by KLM capacity. U2 are struggling at NCL and are strategically chasing the business market as much as leisure, so are unlikely to be interested in MME. FR has tried and given up. That really only leaves LS that haven't tried MME, and they are hardly likely to set up services that will partially be in competition with an Ok base at NCL and with fortress Leeds.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Coventry
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Hipennine,
Many thanks for some interesting analysis - but when I was referring to size, I did mean population, not area
Sheep don't fly, except when they are dead!
I was generally referring to leisure routes - I accept that NCL is much closer to the biz pop, not to mention the fact it is attached to the Metro for pax from a little further afield. Maybe the Solent region is a fairer comparison - with BOH essentially being the leisure apt - although disposable incomes there are obviously higher. Despite this, everyone needs a holiday and this market is driven by price first, then convenience. Why have FR failed so badly? MME ought to be their natural kind of airport. LS have set up at practically every other airport north of BHX - including BLK, so why not MME?
I can only suspect that mgmt are still attached to some mythological value of their product - but even this doesn't add up as Peel have enjoyed great success with locos @LPL.
Many thanks for some interesting analysis - but when I was referring to size, I did mean population, not area
Sheep don't fly, except when they are dead!I was generally referring to leisure routes - I accept that NCL is much closer to the biz pop, not to mention the fact it is attached to the Metro for pax from a little further afield. Maybe the Solent region is a fairer comparison - with BOH essentially being the leisure apt - although disposable incomes there are obviously higher. Despite this, everyone needs a holiday and this market is driven by price first, then convenience. Why have FR failed so badly? MME ought to be their natural kind of airport. LS have set up at practically every other airport north of BHX - including BLK, so why not MME?
I can only suspect that mgmt are still attached to some mythological value of their product - but even this doesn't add up as Peel have enjoyed great success with locos @LPL.
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Hi Jabird,
Not sure that the Solent analogy is applicable (and putting aside that net disposable income per head in the area is probably rather more than Tees Valley). SOU is a performance restricted field so if the FR's want to operate fully loaded 738s in and out of the region, BOH is the only option. SOU is also rather restricted in Apron space and gate size, which again pushes the larger acraft locos to BOH. If SOU had a longer runway and larger terminal development space, I'm sure that BOH would look more like MME
Not sure that the Solent analogy is applicable (and putting aside that net disposable income per head in the area is probably rather more than Tees Valley). SOU is a performance restricted field so if the FR's want to operate fully loaded 738s in and out of the region, BOH is the only option. SOU is also rather restricted in Apron space and gate size, which again pushes the larger acraft locos to BOH. If SOU had a longer runway and larger terminal development space, I'm sure that BOH would look more like MME
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Coventry
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Hipennine,
Yes I take your point - SOU & BOH are complimentary in certain ways. I keep on thinking of other comparisons - BHD (also restricted) & BFS - but neither has 'bottomed out' - so maybe GLA & PIK? Perhaps PIK makes up for its distance from city centre by having a rail link with two trains an hour instead of 2 each week!
But seriously, I refer you back to FR. MOL has repeatedly said that the airport charges are the biggest driver of where they fly - more so than whether or not there is any latent demand between the two points (that is from the horse's mouth!).
So are Peel not as desparate as Infrail? Not yet? Or better to have x pax paying full handling fee and development charge than 2x pax paying pennies?
How big are the car parks @ MME?
Yes I take your point - SOU & BOH are complimentary in certain ways. I keep on thinking of other comparisons - BHD (also restricted) & BFS - but neither has 'bottomed out' - so maybe GLA & PIK? Perhaps PIK makes up for its distance from city centre by having a rail link with two trains an hour instead of 2 each week!
But seriously, I refer you back to FR. MOL has repeatedly said that the airport charges are the biggest driver of where they fly - more so than whether or not there is any latent demand between the two points (that is from the horse's mouth!).
So are Peel not as desparate as Infrail? Not yet? Or better to have x pax paying full handling fee and development charge than 2x pax paying pennies?
How big are the car parks @ MME?
Join Date: Jan 2006
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I agree that perceptually, charging the individual punter a fee to get into or escape from the airport is a management seemingly determined to actively discourage passenger use. I suppose because it's done at YVR (and certainly used to be done at Montreal), the Canadian owners think that it's an acceptable practice, but that's in a country where the price you see in a restaurant doesn't include the tax, nor the service charge (this latter can appear on bills now as a standard 17%). There again you could argue that they are only emulating some of the FR pricing practices, so FR should be happy to look at a business with a similar strategy
More seriously if MOL has said that, believe it, and unless FR can bring daily 100's of spending pax through a terminal (therefore allowing concessions rents to rise etc), which would only be achieved by having several based aircraft flying multiple routes and frequencies, what is the point in the airport offering cheap prices for a couple of flights per day, which need a peak of resource requirement to service (ie expensive to provide) ?
Oh, and don't forget that FR are cutting back at PIK, and that PIK has the advantage that FR are committed there because of the maintenance facility, which means their acraft have to fly there anyway.
More seriously if MOL has said that, believe it, and unless FR can bring daily 100's of spending pax through a terminal (therefore allowing concessions rents to rise etc), which would only be achieved by having several based aircraft flying multiple routes and frequencies, what is the point in the airport offering cheap prices for a couple of flights per day, which need a peak of resource requirement to service (ie expensive to provide) ?
Oh, and don't forget that FR are cutting back at PIK, and that PIK has the advantage that FR are committed there because of the maintenance facility, which means their acraft have to fly there anyway.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Coventry
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Hp,
In my experience the Caribbean airports are the biggest offenders for stealth charging, but that is a government tax not a usage fee (even though govt & airport are one & same). Of course this is especially counter-productive as these are governments which spend a fortune marketing themselves abroad, and then whinge that UK APD is hurting them! And that is on top of the $20 fee for a 'local' driving licence!
But I digress - I'm much better versed on US airport funding than their northern neigbours but iirc tax was included in the price. I have been to Canada twice but never used their airports, so please do correct my ignorance here!
What has this got to do with MME? My guess is that they see it done at NOC, NQY & BLK as their 'inspiration' - but I don't think NQY or NOC are ever going to seriously base a/c?
In my experience the Caribbean airports are the biggest offenders for stealth charging, but that is a government tax not a usage fee (even though govt & airport are one & same). Of course this is especially counter-productive as these are governments which spend a fortune marketing themselves abroad, and then whinge that UK APD is hurting them! And that is on top of the $20 fee for a 'local' driving licence!
But I digress - I'm much better versed on US airport funding than their northern neigbours but iirc tax was included in the price. I have been to Canada twice but never used their airports, so please do correct my ignorance here!
What has this got to do with MME? My guess is that they see it done at NOC, NQY & BLK as their 'inspiration' - but I don't think NQY or NOC are ever going to seriously base a/c?
Join Date: Jan 2006
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I understand that all of Peel Airports incl MME are now owned 65% and operated by a Canadian airport operating company (VAS, which is jointly owned by Vancouver Airport Authority and Citi Infrastructure Investors, operates 16 airports around the world.), and the introduction of the development tax is since that acquisition took place. Vancouver airport collects a Development tax on departure, which has to be paid at a cash desk before departure, as was the case at Montreal the last time I was there (all flights on BA). I was making the point that this is possibly a more acceptable practice in Canada, especially as displayed prices for most things need taxes adding (which vary from province to province), and a service charge is often expected to be paid on top. so perhaps the MME owners mistakenly believe that such practices are normal and acceptable in Europe.
note re Carribean reference - VAS also own Nassau.
note re Carribean reference - VAS also own Nassau.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: TEESSIDE
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Just thought i would give my own experience of MME .
Travelled on the morning KLM on a saturday,.....only 25 pax on a fokker 100.
Check in staff friendly and proffesional,....bag was picked for a search,so off to security,....once again very proffesional and courteous,....paid my £6,....through the scanner,no problems.......KLM crew were great too.
After 8 days abroad back on the lunchtime KLM,....fokker 70.....only a few empty seats so a good load....arrived ontime....through passport control,....again courteous and a thank you from the agent......backs on belt in 5 mins,....paid parking which was £63....not bad if you consider what other airports and rail stations charge!.....home in 15 mins down the A66.
The only downside was the the state of the terminal airside......reminded me of a soviet-era airport......half the place was in darkness,....plywood nailed to some parts of the walls,....not a very good first impression.
So overall was pleased,.....staff great,easy to get to and from,good road links,parking good value,good service from KLM......JUST MODERNISE THE TERMINAL!
Thanx
Holgate.
Travelled on the morning KLM on a saturday,.....only 25 pax on a fokker 100.
Check in staff friendly and proffesional,....bag was picked for a search,so off to security,....once again very proffesional and courteous,....paid my £6,....through the scanner,no problems.......KLM crew were great too.
After 8 days abroad back on the lunchtime KLM,....fokker 70.....only a few empty seats so a good load....arrived ontime....through passport control,....again courteous and a thank you from the agent......backs on belt in 5 mins,....paid parking which was £63....not bad if you consider what other airports and rail stations charge!.....home in 15 mins down the A66.
The only downside was the the state of the terminal airside......reminded me of a soviet-era airport......half the place was in darkness,....plywood nailed to some parts of the walls,....not a very good first impression.
So overall was pleased,.....staff great,easy to get to and from,good road links,parking good value,good service from KLM......JUST MODERNISE THE TERMINAL!
Thanx
Holgate.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Coventry
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Hp - thanks for the updates, I used to be ontop of all this stuff, but have been off the ball for most of the last 3 years due to illness! So I had understood Peel to be same group that owns(/ed) much of Trafford Estate in MAN, including the shopping ctr.
I am well aware of the practice of sales-tax markup, having previously operated a door to door sales outfit in suburbs of BOS & DEN! Just wasn't aware of the Canadians playing same tricks.
Truth is that we have become more used to extras being added on as this was pioneered by the loco airline industry, but also because it is common for websites to add huhge extras for shipping. I think the 'licence' to charge a cash fee on departure was pioneered some years back @NOC, then it seeped across the Irish Sea - but your assertion that it comes from a directive the other side of the Atlantic might well be true too.
All I can say is that any kind of cash fee - ontop of extras that can be weighed up at the click of a mouse - is a serious deterrent, not to mention an accounting hassle for biz pax.
Holgate, modernisation means investment which means an investor looking for ROI. However good KLM may be @MME (and my experience of them @BHX is good too), they will never put enough bums on seats to pay for new facilities. Only a loco with based frames can do that. The question is - are there any airlines left out there to come (back) to MME in a big enough way?
I am well aware of the practice of sales-tax markup, having previously operated a door to door sales outfit in suburbs of BOS & DEN! Just wasn't aware of the Canadians playing same tricks.
Truth is that we have become more used to extras being added on as this was pioneered by the loco airline industry, but also because it is common for websites to add huhge extras for shipping. I think the 'licence' to charge a cash fee on departure was pioneered some years back @NOC, then it seeped across the Irish Sea - but your assertion that it comes from a directive the other side of the Atlantic might well be true too.
All I can say is that any kind of cash fee - ontop of extras that can be weighed up at the click of a mouse - is a serious deterrent, not to mention an accounting hassle for biz pax.
Holgate, modernisation means investment which means an investor looking for ROI. However good KLM may be @MME (and my experience of them @BHX is good too), they will never put enough bums on seats to pay for new facilities. Only a loco with based frames can do that. The question is - are there any airlines left out there to come (back) to MME in a big enough way?
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Join Date: May 2009
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I'm for this.
By changing the name back to Teesside will result in easyjet, ryanair, southwestern, emirates, thomson, thomascook and probably BA setting up bases.
The name change will also vastly improve the airports facilities and catchment area. Local people will now rush to the airport after having realised its not in Durham but actually just over there.
Infact, it could be the greatest thing in the world to happen.
(ahem)
By changing the name back to Teesside will result in easyjet, ryanair, southwestern, emirates, thomson, thomascook and probably BA setting up bases.
The name change will also vastly improve the airports facilities and catchment area. Local people will now rush to the airport after having realised its not in Durham but actually just over there.
Infact, it could be the greatest thing in the world to happen.
(ahem)
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Just saw this on BBC;
BBC News - New liquids scanner tested at UK airport
A new machine which tests liquids without them having to be opened, is being tested at Durham Tees Valley airport.
In 2013, a European ban on taking liquids onto planes is expected to be relaxed.
The BBC's Transport Correspondent Richard Scott has been to the airport to see one of the machines in action.
BBC News - New liquids scanner tested at UK airport
A new machine which tests liquids without them having to be opened, is being tested at Durham Tees Valley airport.
In 2013, a European ban on taking liquids onto planes is expected to be relaxed.
The BBC's Transport Correspondent Richard Scott has been to the airport to see one of the machines in action.
Join Date: Dec 2003
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What!? Nobody's mentioned Mike Morton's departure yet?
Durham Tees Valley Airport boss quits (From The Northern Echo)
Durham Tees Valley Airport boss quits (From The Northern Echo)
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Until the new Airport Director is in post, the team at the airport supported by the parent company Peel Airports, will continue to ensure that it is business as usual during the summer period."