DURHAM TEES VALLEY AIRPORT - 5
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RRYAN,
That £500k price tag for DTV is a crime, Peel must be laughing.
Regarding your comment about the Peel director leaving the council meeting "And also just to re-clarify, the director didn't simply walk-out, but had a more important business meeting to go to. "
What was more important than talking to the local community, as you seem to have a bit of knowledge about where he was going?
Was it:
1. A prospective caravan owner wanting a parking place?
2. The tea was made?
3. Peel had a meeting with some prospective builders?
That £500k price tag for DTV is a crime, Peel must be laughing.
Regarding your comment about the Peel director leaving the council meeting "And also just to re-clarify, the director didn't simply walk-out, but had a more important business meeting to go to. "
What was more important than talking to the local community, as you seem to have a bit of knowledge about where he was going?
Was it:
1. A prospective caravan owner wanting a parking place?
2. The tea was made?
3. Peel had a meeting with some prospective builders?
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I can't remember the specifics of the meeting (I know you'll no doubt tell me how convenient that is) but I do remember it being something of significance.
Yes it's important to talk to the local community, but not when it could come at the expense of income being brought into the airport, in which case the Director had good reason to leave.
And yes, the 500k was a crime, a very big one at that.
Yes it's important to talk to the local community, but not when it could come at the expense of income being brought into the airport, in which case the Director had good reason to leave.
And yes, the 500k was a crime, a very big one at that.
My post at 2915 explains why the airport was sold cheap - investment was needed, couldn't be afforded by the LA's so the price was kept low on condition that there was a certain level of investment in the airport.
All that is perfectly straightforward, what might be more questionable is whether the expected investment materialised. I've got no idea about that (although I'd want my money back from whoever re-designed the terminal...).
All that is perfectly straightforward, what might be more questionable is whether the expected investment materialised. I've got no idea about that (although I'd want my money back from whoever re-designed the terminal...).
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Yawn fecking yawn. Round and round we go.... it's all been said before. zzzzzzzzzzzzzz............
If you're that bothered, go and lobby your local Councillor or MP and ask them to do something about it (if they can be bothered). No fecker on here is going to change what Peel is doing now or in the future. They are a law unto themselves. They've raped the Local Authorities with empty promises.
Most people travel to Leeds, Newcastle or further afield if they want to go anywhere.
Teesside won't go anywhere with passenger flights. At the most, it will expand with ancillary services to aviation. Knock down the terminal and build a fecking big maintenance hangar. At least we'll see aircraft at the airport!!
Lets find out when the next meeting is and go en-mass. Party anyone??
If you're that bothered, go and lobby your local Councillor or MP and ask them to do something about it (if they can be bothered). No fecker on here is going to change what Peel is doing now or in the future. They are a law unto themselves. They've raped the Local Authorities with empty promises.
Most people travel to Leeds, Newcastle or further afield if they want to go anywhere.
Teesside won't go anywhere with passenger flights. At the most, it will expand with ancillary services to aviation. Knock down the terminal and build a fecking big maintenance hangar. At least we'll see aircraft at the airport!!
Lets find out when the next meeting is and go en-mass. Party anyone??
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What really surprises me about this thread is that it still continues. MME's local catchment population is too small and insufficiently wealthy enough to support what it has, let alone any expansion. Also, because this airport is (geographically) stuck between two airports with larger local populations (LBA & NCL) it will always be smaller unless it can offer something the others lack. And what could that be? Answer that, and its future is secured. I'll tell you in advance it's not capacity.
However, I'll give a couple of suggestions. Firstly, someone should take a trip to Linköping City Airport. It's run by a single team who perform check-in, loading, marshalling, fire-fighting, cleaning, ops control etc. Each person is not only capable of multiple tasks, but actually performs them during a turnaround. Having fewer, more capable, employees reduces operating costs to an acceptable level. Employing more people on minimum wages serves no useful purpose. Secondly, how about changing the way the airport generates income? Dump the development fee and aircraft landing fees and instead make money on car and vehicle entry and parking. Charge concessions a percentage on their gross margin and give free rent. Encourage airlines to operate from MME because they can operate for there for free. Take a leaf from MOL's book and make money from everything else. Business has to be allowed to grow at minimal cost.
In its current form it's dying a slow death.
PM
However, I'll give a couple of suggestions. Firstly, someone should take a trip to Linköping City Airport. It's run by a single team who perform check-in, loading, marshalling, fire-fighting, cleaning, ops control etc. Each person is not only capable of multiple tasks, but actually performs them during a turnaround. Having fewer, more capable, employees reduces operating costs to an acceptable level. Employing more people on minimum wages serves no useful purpose. Secondly, how about changing the way the airport generates income? Dump the development fee and aircraft landing fees and instead make money on car and vehicle entry and parking. Charge concessions a percentage on their gross margin and give free rent. Encourage airlines to operate from MME because they can operate for there for free. Take a leaf from MOL's book and make money from everything else. Business has to be allowed to grow at minimal cost.
In its current form it's dying a slow death.
PM
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MME's catchment area is fine, it's been said before and it'll be said again, we had nearly a million passengers eight years ago, those million passengers haven't gone anywhere, they're still here, and if you walk into any town centre within the region, stop people at random, and ask them where they'd prefer to fly from, the answer every time is MME, the vast majority of flights that have been axed from the airport over the years have been full, CAA stats show that, so yield is lacking I hear you say, so increase fares a little bit! An extra tenner isn't going to deter the pax!
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I'm afraid eight years ago where very different economic times, of course that's not to say the good times could not come back again.
Last edited by Jamesair; 26th Sep 2013 at 21:17.
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I agree Jamesair, but even taking that into account, 500-750,000 pax doesn't feel like too much to ask for.
Although I take with a huge grain of salt what "locals down the pub" have to say, I do hope Beafer is right about MPs monitoring this thread, I've certainly heard in the past that a lot of influential people, including Peel, the press and more, do keep an eye on what's being said on here.
Although I take with a huge grain of salt what "locals down the pub" have to say, I do hope Beafer is right about MPs monitoring this thread, I've certainly heard in the past that a lot of influential people, including Peel, the press and more, do keep an eye on what's being said on here.
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A non-existent marketing department is a big issue, with a perfect example lying in Aer Lingus Regional.
Aside from the announcement they were launching MME-DUB, not a single peep was heard from them. I don't recall hearing radio ads, reading newspapers ads, nothing.
Now they're going into NCL (which is a big enough kick in the teeth on it's own) I'm sick to death of hearing every five minutes about this great new double daily Dublin service for just £29 where you can pre-clear US immigration etc etc.
Normally, I'd be concerned I'd just gave them further advertising with that above paragraph, but their own campaign has been so extensive half of Australia knows about it, so what does it matter!!!
Aside from the announcement they were launching MME-DUB, not a single peep was heard from them. I don't recall hearing radio ads, reading newspapers ads, nothing.
Now they're going into NCL (which is a big enough kick in the teeth on it's own) I'm sick to death of hearing every five minutes about this great new double daily Dublin service for just £29 where you can pre-clear US immigration etc etc.
Normally, I'd be concerned I'd just gave them further advertising with that above paragraph, but their own campaign has been so extensive half of Australia knows about it, so what does it matter!!!
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Everyone in GA already knows how the DTV management drove most out with high fees etc. The future is now bright at Fishburn according to a friend with a cessna.
Regarding the rumour about the MP's. I heard they are all waiting to see what Peels next move is before they make any waves.
Re the dublin adverts, Peel are advertising heavily in caravan storage but nothing else?
How much does it cost to run DTV per year?
Regarding the rumour about the MP's. I heard they are all waiting to see what Peels next move is before they make any waves.
Re the dublin adverts, Peel are advertising heavily in caravan storage but nothing else?
How much does it cost to run DTV per year?
August 2013 CAA provisional stats
Overall message - small pockets of good news, but also seeing stagnation compared to strong growth at Newcastle.
Aberdeen - DTV stagnant but Newcastle had a big improvement
Amsterdam - very pronounced shift by KLM customers away from DTV in favour of Newcastle, even after making allowances for Easyjet
Jersey - surprisingly positive, growing well. Route however is thin and very seasonal so don't get too excited.
Palma - pax number decrease possibly because of the move to a less-than-ideal day of the week. NCL showing strong growth to Palma in comparison
DTV had 14,042 pax in August, up 2.4 % on August 2012 - gain equates to 324 pax
DTV rolling year has 163,409 pax
Be cautious on the apparent growth - this seems to be caused by 299 charter pax to/from Hamburg. Not sure why the flight existed, but presumably some sort of one-off exception.
NCL had 527,591 pax in August, up 1.2 % on August 2012 - gain equates to 8,620 pax
NCL rolling year has 4,393,874 pax
In August 2013, for every 1 passenger at DTV, there were 37.6 passengers at NCL
As a historical reference, in August 2009 (i.e. post credit crunch), for every 1 passenger at DTV, there were 17.1 passengers at NCL
Aberdeen route for August
DTV - 2,771 pax (all scheduled), down 1.6% from 2,815 pax (2,738 scheduled, 77 charter), meaning a loss of 44 passengers. Looking only at scheduled, the route is up 1.2% or a gain of 33 passengers
NCL - 2,136 pax (all scheduled), up 21.6% from 1,757 pax (all scheduled), meaning a gain of 379 passengers
It is concerning that NCL is growing fast on the Aberdeen route while DTV remains stagnant
Jersey seasonal route for August
DTV - 636 pax, up 61.8% from 393 pax, meaning a gain of 243 passengers
NCL - 2,908 pax, up 33% from 2,186 pax, meaning a gain of 722 passengers
There were 4 Saturdays in August 2012 and 5 Saturdays in August 2013 - this would explain quite a lot of the jump in passengers numbers.
Palma route for August
DTV - 1,277 pax, down 11.6% from 1,446 pax meaning a loss of 169 passengers
NCL - 45,540 pax, up 9% from 41,784 pax meaning a gain of 3,756 passengers
Palma analysis:
Palma was on Saturdays in 2012 (4x in August 2012), but now Tuesdays (4x in August 2013). Going from 181 pax in August 2012 to 160 pax per flight in August 2013 may well be caused by going from a leisure-friendly Saturday to a leisure-challenging Tuesday
Amsterdam route for June
DTV - 8,858 pax (8,786 scheduled, 72 charter), down 1.4% from 8,981 (8,938 scheduled, 43 charter) pax meaning a loss of 123 passengers
NCL - 32,146 pax, up 32.6% from 24,242 pax meaning a gain of 7,904 passengers
NCL KLM-only (my estimate) - 27,224 pax, up 10.7% from 24,242 pax meaning a gain of 2,982 passengers
Note - Easyjet began NCL-AMS in Dec 2012, flying 4x weekly in August 2013
Amsterdam analysis:
There were 5 Saturdays in August 2013, but 4 in August 2012
DTV-AMS KLM load factor has fallen from 62.8% to 62.4%
On a Europe-wide basis, Easyjet saw a load factor in August of 92.8%
Easyjet flew NCL-AMS on 17 days in August. Using, a 156-seat A319 with 92.8% load factor (ie average of 140 pax turn up for a flight), we get 4,922 passengers, which falls far short of the NCL-AMS route being up by 7,904 passengers - this tells us KLM are seeing passenger numbers up by 12.3% on the NCL-AMS route, in contrast to DTV-AMS being down 1.7%
Even if we assume Easyjet had a 100% load factor, KLM are still seeing NCL doing 10.7% better year-on-year compared to 1.7% worse at DTV
While Easyjet and KLM have very different products, there is overlap for customers travelling point-to-point between NE England and the Netherlands - this may have led KLM on the NCL route (but probably less so on the DTV route) to lower prices slightly or perhaps improve their product offering to defend market share - thus stimulating growth on NCL-AMS and also sucking some passengers who might have used DTV towards NCL
KLM is seeing a very clear shift in emphasis by the overall passenger base away from MME to NCL, even if Easyjet are seeing 100% load factors on their NCL-AMS route.
Aberdeen - DTV stagnant but Newcastle had a big improvement
Amsterdam - very pronounced shift by KLM customers away from DTV in favour of Newcastle, even after making allowances for Easyjet
Jersey - surprisingly positive, growing well. Route however is thin and very seasonal so don't get too excited.
Palma - pax number decrease possibly because of the move to a less-than-ideal day of the week. NCL showing strong growth to Palma in comparison
DTV had 14,042 pax in August, up 2.4 % on August 2012 - gain equates to 324 pax
DTV rolling year has 163,409 pax
Be cautious on the apparent growth - this seems to be caused by 299 charter pax to/from Hamburg. Not sure why the flight existed, but presumably some sort of one-off exception.
NCL had 527,591 pax in August, up 1.2 % on August 2012 - gain equates to 8,620 pax
NCL rolling year has 4,393,874 pax
In August 2013, for every 1 passenger at DTV, there were 37.6 passengers at NCL
As a historical reference, in August 2009 (i.e. post credit crunch), for every 1 passenger at DTV, there were 17.1 passengers at NCL
Aberdeen route for August
DTV - 2,771 pax (all scheduled), down 1.6% from 2,815 pax (2,738 scheduled, 77 charter), meaning a loss of 44 passengers. Looking only at scheduled, the route is up 1.2% or a gain of 33 passengers
NCL - 2,136 pax (all scheduled), up 21.6% from 1,757 pax (all scheduled), meaning a gain of 379 passengers
It is concerning that NCL is growing fast on the Aberdeen route while DTV remains stagnant
Jersey seasonal route for August
DTV - 636 pax, up 61.8% from 393 pax, meaning a gain of 243 passengers
NCL - 2,908 pax, up 33% from 2,186 pax, meaning a gain of 722 passengers
There were 4 Saturdays in August 2012 and 5 Saturdays in August 2013 - this would explain quite a lot of the jump in passengers numbers.
Palma route for August
DTV - 1,277 pax, down 11.6% from 1,446 pax meaning a loss of 169 passengers
NCL - 45,540 pax, up 9% from 41,784 pax meaning a gain of 3,756 passengers
Palma analysis:
Palma was on Saturdays in 2012 (4x in August 2012), but now Tuesdays (4x in August 2013). Going from 181 pax in August 2012 to 160 pax per flight in August 2013 may well be caused by going from a leisure-friendly Saturday to a leisure-challenging Tuesday
Amsterdam route for June
DTV - 8,858 pax (8,786 scheduled, 72 charter), down 1.4% from 8,981 (8,938 scheduled, 43 charter) pax meaning a loss of 123 passengers
NCL - 32,146 pax, up 32.6% from 24,242 pax meaning a gain of 7,904 passengers
NCL KLM-only (my estimate) - 27,224 pax, up 10.7% from 24,242 pax meaning a gain of 2,982 passengers
Note - Easyjet began NCL-AMS in Dec 2012, flying 4x weekly in August 2013
Amsterdam analysis:
There were 5 Saturdays in August 2013, but 4 in August 2012
DTV-AMS KLM load factor has fallen from 62.8% to 62.4%
On a Europe-wide basis, Easyjet saw a load factor in August of 92.8%
Easyjet flew NCL-AMS on 17 days in August. Using, a 156-seat A319 with 92.8% load factor (ie average of 140 pax turn up for a flight), we get 4,922 passengers, which falls far short of the NCL-AMS route being up by 7,904 passengers - this tells us KLM are seeing passenger numbers up by 12.3% on the NCL-AMS route, in contrast to DTV-AMS being down 1.7%
Even if we assume Easyjet had a 100% load factor, KLM are still seeing NCL doing 10.7% better year-on-year compared to 1.7% worse at DTV
While Easyjet and KLM have very different products, there is overlap for customers travelling point-to-point between NE England and the Netherlands - this may have led KLM on the NCL route (but probably less so on the DTV route) to lower prices slightly or perhaps improve their product offering to defend market share - thus stimulating growth on NCL-AMS and also sucking some passengers who might have used DTV towards NCL
KLM is seeing a very clear shift in emphasis by the overall passenger base away from MME to NCL, even if Easyjet are seeing 100% load factors on their NCL-AMS route.
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 29th Sep 2013 at 19:30.
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Palma Pax Numbers
1 flight to Palma was cancelled in August due to a tech issue and the passengers bussed to Manchester, which accounts for the decrease in the Palma figures.
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Analysis
Excellent analysis David, thank you.
Have to say, I am one of the KLM passengers using NCL more. Including a trip last month and 4 planned trips, 4 out of 5 will be from NCL and only one from MME. Why?
Timings - better frequency and connectivity through AMS.
Price - At times, marginally better prices - though not always the case.
CDG - Whilst not a fan of CDG, I can outbound KLM and inbound AF at NCL (or vice versa) which gives me more options.
Whilst this doesn't affect my choice, NCL always run E190's or B737's whilst MME runs the old F70's.
Add the fact of the fee and the airport experience, you can understand why there is a move up North.
Have to say, I am one of the KLM passengers using NCL more. Including a trip last month and 4 planned trips, 4 out of 5 will be from NCL and only one from MME. Why?
Timings - better frequency and connectivity through AMS.
Price - At times, marginally better prices - though not always the case.
CDG - Whilst not a fan of CDG, I can outbound KLM and inbound AF at NCL (or vice versa) which gives me more options.
Whilst this doesn't affect my choice, NCL always run E190's or B737's whilst MME runs the old F70's.
Add the fact of the fee and the airport experience, you can understand why there is a move up North.
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Although the steady drop in passengers on the AMS route is alarming and needs addressing asap, a 60%+ load factor is healthy for a business route and still profitable for KLM.
What does concern me is the fact that KLM have recently bought more E190s to replace the F70s, or in other words, a 98-seater aircraft to replace a 79-seater aircraft. Unless DTV can somehow grow the route, I think this is what will eventually kill it as at the moment, I doubt we can make the jump.
What does concern me is the fact that KLM have recently bought more E190s to replace the F70s, or in other words, a 98-seater aircraft to replace a 79-seater aircraft. Unless DTV can somehow grow the route, I think this is what will eventually kill it as at the moment, I doubt we can make the jump.