NEWCASTLE - 8
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Absolutely. However demographicaly those three places are very different to NCL.
Guys, I would love nothing more than a huge airport offering countless destinations for less than £50 return. Unfortunately this industry has overheads like no other and an extremely vulnerable (to external factors) customer base who are very price sensitive. We are lucky to live in such a great place however we must be realistic as to what we can sustainably achieve as a region.
I'm not all doom and gloom (just partly) I just have a feeling, and noe and then I see the cracks and the signs that things are going to get very hard. And don't get me started on the price of filling or buying the jets which has increased substantially recently.
I hope Im wrong.
Guys, I would love nothing more than a huge airport offering countless destinations for less than £50 return. Unfortunately this industry has overheads like no other and an extremely vulnerable (to external factors) customer base who are very price sensitive. We are lucky to live in such a great place however we must be realistic as to what we can sustainably achieve as a region.
I'm not all doom and gloom (just partly) I just have a feeling, and noe and then I see the cracks and the signs that things are going to get very hard. And don't get me started on the price of filling or buying the jets which has increased substantially recently.
I hope Im wrong.
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Have to say I can't help but agree with HeartyMeatballs - I hope you're wrong and I hope I'm wrong by agreeing with you though...
But the fact is Ryanair's new (and existing) offerings are, not including Poland, to places which already have significant capacity from the likes of EZY, TOM, TCX and LS. It may drive down prices which yes is great for consumers but if it's going to trash yields (which is very likely) then it's only a matter of time before someone quits
Personally, I can't see LS cutting back, they're getting a lot of new planes and let's face it, they need to send them somewhere.
EZY - can see them operating flights from other bases and closing the base in the medium-long term - bad for jobs and investment into the NE
TOM - I think they're fairly well established enough to be able to survive purely because of the package holiday market. They know which markets work and are very well known
TCX - again, can see them keeping the same, maybe downgrading 1 A321 to another leased out A320 or dropping the A320 (worst case). Although as with TOM, fairly well known in the region and might be able to survive.
Ryanair - Have already said investment in the UK is on hold because of Brexit, can't see them ever operating a base (hence few local jobs, little investment)
Regarding c£200 returns to Spain this weekend, this further highlights overcapacity on some routes - £200 return is an absolute steal for this time of year!
I'm sure the NCL 'route-dreamers' will be along to criticise my post sentence for sentence but the facts are - the NE is one of (if not the?) the most economic deprived areas in the UK, people will and do travel to MAN, Scotland etc. to save a few hundred quid and while planes may be full, doesn't necessarily mean a profit.
I would love to see all of the above operate together and survive, making healthy profits in the process however I feel Ryanair are just going to dump lots of cheap seats, pushing people away from established carriers who provide jobs and investment to the region.
But the fact is Ryanair's new (and existing) offerings are, not including Poland, to places which already have significant capacity from the likes of EZY, TOM, TCX and LS. It may drive down prices which yes is great for consumers but if it's going to trash yields (which is very likely) then it's only a matter of time before someone quits
Personally, I can't see LS cutting back, they're getting a lot of new planes and let's face it, they need to send them somewhere.
EZY - can see them operating flights from other bases and closing the base in the medium-long term - bad for jobs and investment into the NE
TOM - I think they're fairly well established enough to be able to survive purely because of the package holiday market. They know which markets work and are very well known
TCX - again, can see them keeping the same, maybe downgrading 1 A321 to another leased out A320 or dropping the A320 (worst case). Although as with TOM, fairly well known in the region and might be able to survive.
Ryanair - Have already said investment in the UK is on hold because of Brexit, can't see them ever operating a base (hence few local jobs, little investment)
Regarding c£200 returns to Spain this weekend, this further highlights overcapacity on some routes - £200 return is an absolute steal for this time of year!
I'm sure the NCL 'route-dreamers' will be along to criticise my post sentence for sentence but the facts are - the NE is one of (if not the?) the most economic deprived areas in the UK, people will and do travel to MAN, Scotland etc. to save a few hundred quid and while planes may be full, doesn't necessarily mean a profit.
I would love to see all of the above operate together and survive, making healthy profits in the process however I feel Ryanair are just going to dump lots of cheap seats, pushing people away from established carriers who provide jobs and investment to the region.
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Ryanair AGP
Just did a quick search for last week of summer holidays NCL/AGP:
RYR: £136
Jet2: £200
EZY: £229
Whilst RYR price looks enticing there is no way I, or many others would want to get up at 3-4am on last day of holiday so happy to pay more. Personally, I would always choose EZY over Jet2 even if slightly higher price as EZY are generally more pleasant to fly with as in less queing at check in, newer aircraft, no hard sell on the aircraft (and in booking process) and cheesy holiday music and endless announcements trying to upsell onboard!
Just my views but my point is that choice is good. With all the terror alerts, the traditional Spanish destinations will always prove popular.
RYR: £136
Jet2: £200
EZY: £229
Whilst RYR price looks enticing there is no way I, or many others would want to get up at 3-4am on last day of holiday so happy to pay more. Personally, I would always choose EZY over Jet2 even if slightly higher price as EZY are generally more pleasant to fly with as in less queing at check in, newer aircraft, no hard sell on the aircraft (and in booking process) and cheesy holiday music and endless announcements trying to upsell onboard!
Just my views but my point is that choice is good. With all the terror alerts, the traditional Spanish destinations will always prove popular.
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HMB - It's only a couple of years ago I was comparing TCX & TOM fares to TFS for £150 - £160 return in peak season, so £200+ to Mainland Spain (2/3rd the journey at most does seem Expensive, especially as oil prices have reduced considerably since then)
Pallan wrote:
I'm aware of quite a few friends and family who have travelled to MAN, EDI & LBA to save £100's per family booking -... So I guess Very Healthy Profits are still being made ex NCL with maybe A Lot of further potential to be achieved on Route & Volume growth.
Pallan wrote:
people will and do travel to MAN, Scotland etc. to save a few hundred quid
Join Date: May 2013
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I'm not going to go through every single point because this post would never end...
Ok... I'm a kid, so clearly I know nothing about how anything works and all I care about is having lots of shiny new planes flying around here there and everywhere half empty with passengers who only payed a tenner
There is MASSIVE misunderstanding here, and I will pick up on this point because I do in fact know quite a lot about it after 2 years of studying development and globalisation. This also majorly p***es me off in many brexit debates because people blame the EU for this when it's not, it's natural progression.
Easyjet was ALWAYS going to start flying to their smaller bases from abroad, it's cheaper to employ staff and probably many other things in Spain. That's why Ryanair is better off flying INTO Newcastle versus OUT of Newcastle. Simply because it costs more money. Exactly the same principle as call centres outsourcing to India. Brexit will exacerbate this and increase the extent to which it happens, but it was gonna start happening anyway, Palma and Barcelona bases for example.
Now of course this is probably going to get blamed on Ryanair setting up shop at NCL, but have you not considered that there may be benefits?
NCL has lost a good chunk of traffic since the highs, XL went, EZY imploded, countless companies went bust, domestic took a massive hit losing EZY to STN and BA to LGW, as well as downsizing to LHR... Then all the 757's went. Ryanair is simply filling in all the gaps that have been left, have you looked at the facts and figures? Most months (using ALC as an example) the growth Ryanair provided was exceeded. An example I remember (not got the numbers to hand) was that Ryanair added an extra 8000 or so seats that month, and pax growth was in the order of 11,000 that month.
How many passengers have been redirected from Egypt, Tunisia, Turkey and some even Greece - to Spain and Portugal?
If yields were being trashed, would Ryanair keep expanding as rapidly as they have, bloody brave if you ask me but they've obviously tapped something! Would Jet2 be adding another aircraft for S17? Would Easyjet be going for new routes? Yes ok they're cutting some frequencies but it's worked out for the best - new routes coming up if rumours are to be believed, and that's what we need!
Ok, maybe some people are averse to low cost airlines and would rather see NCL scaled down with only legacies and the occasional old style - full service charter airlines, But then you say we're a poor region and struggle to support service... Ryanair gives the customers exactly what they want and need. Cheap flights. How else might your average North East family be able to afford a family holiday - but then be able to consider a city break later on in the year for the adults... Something they'd never have been able to afford when they were limited with package options (look at jet2holidays, they're perfect for the market they serve) and their city break was via a hub with BA/AF/KL... They can probably get the whole thing cheaper than just the flights now!
I get slated for my optimism, but I don't see how investment is a bad thing. I can't comprehend why this is being made negative. A huge low cost airline invests in us and it's the end of local jobs and employment at our airport? Cheap flights are trashing yields and going to make airlines leave despite the clear demand for it (and by the way, it WILL create demand too)... I want to work in the aviation industry, of course I want to see it directly creating local jobs, but I know that's probably the most unlikely it's been for a while.
I know I've gone on but I'm just going to end it on, if anything it's Brexit and Scottish APD devolution that will be the death of NCL... Not *INVESTMENT* and *EXPANSION* from Ryanair and at the end of the day, they're going to bring 750,000 people through their doors in 2017, do you know how much investment that could mean by the things holidaymakers buy in airports?
You don't get business travellers paying for airport parking, having meals and pints in the terminal, buying the adapters they forgot, having a little preflight shop, maybe a last minute currency exchange, and as they head back to get their kids that are playing the arcade sinking coins into all the machines "oooh I could read that book by the pool" cha-ching £15 to WHSmiths - times 750,000 (and the rest).
This is not a bad thing! Ryanair are filling a gap, and now I'm off to look for a birthday break next May - creating demand
Someone might want to tell Mr O'Leary that he can't make money selling cheap flights by the way... He might want to know that!
Ok... I'm a kid, so clearly I know nothing about how anything works and all I care about is having lots of shiny new planes flying around here there and everywhere half empty with passengers who only payed a tenner
There is MASSIVE misunderstanding here, and I will pick up on this point because I do in fact know quite a lot about it after 2 years of studying development and globalisation. This also majorly p***es me off in many brexit debates because people blame the EU for this when it's not, it's natural progression.
Easyjet was ALWAYS going to start flying to their smaller bases from abroad, it's cheaper to employ staff and probably many other things in Spain. That's why Ryanair is better off flying INTO Newcastle versus OUT of Newcastle. Simply because it costs more money. Exactly the same principle as call centres outsourcing to India. Brexit will exacerbate this and increase the extent to which it happens, but it was gonna start happening anyway, Palma and Barcelona bases for example.
Now of course this is probably going to get blamed on Ryanair setting up shop at NCL, but have you not considered that there may be benefits?
NCL has lost a good chunk of traffic since the highs, XL went, EZY imploded, countless companies went bust, domestic took a massive hit losing EZY to STN and BA to LGW, as well as downsizing to LHR... Then all the 757's went. Ryanair is simply filling in all the gaps that have been left, have you looked at the facts and figures? Most months (using ALC as an example) the growth Ryanair provided was exceeded. An example I remember (not got the numbers to hand) was that Ryanair added an extra 8000 or so seats that month, and pax growth was in the order of 11,000 that month.
How many passengers have been redirected from Egypt, Tunisia, Turkey and some even Greece - to Spain and Portugal?
If yields were being trashed, would Ryanair keep expanding as rapidly as they have, bloody brave if you ask me but they've obviously tapped something! Would Jet2 be adding another aircraft for S17? Would Easyjet be going for new routes? Yes ok they're cutting some frequencies but it's worked out for the best - new routes coming up if rumours are to be believed, and that's what we need!
Ok, maybe some people are averse to low cost airlines and would rather see NCL scaled down with only legacies and the occasional old style - full service charter airlines, But then you say we're a poor region and struggle to support service... Ryanair gives the customers exactly what they want and need. Cheap flights. How else might your average North East family be able to afford a family holiday - but then be able to consider a city break later on in the year for the adults... Something they'd never have been able to afford when they were limited with package options (look at jet2holidays, they're perfect for the market they serve) and their city break was via a hub with BA/AF/KL... They can probably get the whole thing cheaper than just the flights now!
I get slated for my optimism, but I don't see how investment is a bad thing. I can't comprehend why this is being made negative. A huge low cost airline invests in us and it's the end of local jobs and employment at our airport? Cheap flights are trashing yields and going to make airlines leave despite the clear demand for it (and by the way, it WILL create demand too)... I want to work in the aviation industry, of course I want to see it directly creating local jobs, but I know that's probably the most unlikely it's been for a while.
I know I've gone on but I'm just going to end it on, if anything it's Brexit and Scottish APD devolution that will be the death of NCL... Not *INVESTMENT* and *EXPANSION* from Ryanair and at the end of the day, they're going to bring 750,000 people through their doors in 2017, do you know how much investment that could mean by the things holidaymakers buy in airports?
You don't get business travellers paying for airport parking, having meals and pints in the terminal, buying the adapters they forgot, having a little preflight shop, maybe a last minute currency exchange, and as they head back to get their kids that are playing the arcade sinking coins into all the machines "oooh I could read that book by the pool" cha-ching £15 to WHSmiths - times 750,000 (and the rest).
This is not a bad thing! Ryanair are filling a gap, and now I'm off to look for a birthday break next May - creating demand
Someone might want to tell Mr O'Leary that he can't make money selling cheap flights by the way... He might want to know that!
Join Date: May 2013
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Also... Having gone myself to check, to go to Alicante this weekend for 7 nights, flights only. The airlines want this:
Easyjet: £193.48 Fri-Fri (this surprised me, not bad) £207.48 Sun-Sun
Jet2: £286.40 Sat-Sat, £248 Sun-Sun
Ryanair: £303.98 (£235.98 Sun-Sun)
Thomson: £479 Sat-Sat, £389 Sat-Sun (Saturday redeye)
Then you need a suitcase... And of course your family will want to sit together... Damn, did we sort that travel insurance or do we need some?
Easyjet: £193.48 Fri-Fri (this surprised me, not bad) £207.48 Sun-Sun
Jet2: £286.40 Sat-Sat, £248 Sun-Sun
Ryanair: £303.98 (£235.98 Sun-Sun)
Thomson: £479 Sat-Sat, £389 Sat-Sun (Saturday redeye)
Then you need a suitcase... And of course your family will want to sit together... Damn, did we sort that travel insurance or do we need some?
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Investment is a good thing. Sending planes from abroad to operate flights is not investment.
It's all well and good. You're clearly a aspiring EK pilot. What you need to remember is you won't start your career there. It'll be BA/FR/EZ then after several years if you're very lucky(!) you'll end up at EK. LHR is full for BA, LGW full for EZ. Where do you propose they go?
And take a look at the Middle East forum. Yes the uniform ad paint job at EK may look nice but the reality is it's a hell hole that most can't wait to leave.
When you've had enough of ULH sectors on minimum rest or you've had enough on Mid East night turns you'll want out. And when all of the local jobs in the UK here have gone what will you do? A 10 month contract in PMI for EZ or FR in Wroclaw?
It will be FR/BA/EZ you'll be desperate to come back to and will be begging them just so you can get home. Just a shame that their regional bases in the UK will be no more.
Enjoy your £20 returns.
It's all well and good. You're clearly a aspiring EK pilot. What you need to remember is you won't start your career there. It'll be BA/FR/EZ then after several years if you're very lucky(!) you'll end up at EK. LHR is full for BA, LGW full for EZ. Where do you propose they go?
And take a look at the Middle East forum. Yes the uniform ad paint job at EK may look nice but the reality is it's a hell hole that most can't wait to leave.
When you've had enough of ULH sectors on minimum rest or you've had enough on Mid East night turns you'll want out. And when all of the local jobs in the UK here have gone what will you do? A 10 month contract in PMI for EZ or FR in Wroclaw?
It will be FR/BA/EZ you'll be desperate to come back to and will be begging them just so you can get home. Just a shame that their regional bases in the UK will be no more.
Enjoy your £20 returns.
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Just had a huge storm, and I mean huge storm, over here on the Solway coast, it's now heading eastwards towards NCL, I'd expect there could be significant disruption within the next few hours. Never seen hail or lightning like it...
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Well said. EK77WNCL
RYANAIR aren't stupid they have done there homework and to come in on PALMA daily shows that they have found a gap.
Yes those figures from ALC were a massive increase and they were not all sold at £20
Most were well over £100!!
It is stated that only based aircraft brings in investment???
If that's the case then look at other airports
Heathrow only makes money from BA/VS
so what happens to the 30+ AC,AA,DL flights per day they don't bring anything to Heathrow??
LTN has loads of flights from WIZZ but only 1 aircraft is based there??
Again no investment to LTN
I understand that by investing means having the plane based here creates more but the way of pilot and crew jobs but still that aircraft needs gate staff and refuelled, catered etc
Smaller investment maybe better than trying to get a base.
Those passengers will still park car at airport still buy drinks at airport pubs so still there is money coming into the local area
RYANAIR aren't stupid they have done there homework and to come in on PALMA daily shows that they have found a gap.
Yes those figures from ALC were a massive increase and they were not all sold at £20
Most were well over £100!!
It is stated that only based aircraft brings in investment???
If that's the case then look at other airports
Heathrow only makes money from BA/VS
so what happens to the 30+ AC,AA,DL flights per day they don't bring anything to Heathrow??
LTN has loads of flights from WIZZ but only 1 aircraft is based there??
Again no investment to LTN
I understand that by investing means having the plane based here creates more but the way of pilot and crew jobs but still that aircraft needs gate staff and refuelled, catered etc
Smaller investment maybe better than trying to get a base.
Those passengers will still park car at airport still buy drinks at airport pubs so still there is money coming into the local area
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There's not an awful lot of free parking stands available at NCL overnight, so if getting new airlines to base a/c, or existing airlines to increase number of a/c, I'm sure NCL would need to consider a few more stands, as an extra LS airframe next year, combined with for example a 3 a/c FR base wouldn't leave much room nightstopper-wise.
NCL I'm sure are happy with the news, and would much prefer this than more business oriented flights where pax tend to spend less £ in the terminal. What's better than a plane load of stags arriving at the airport 5 hours early, having a few pints in the check-in hall till the desk opens, then heading through security and into the Bigg Market...sorry, the departure lounge, for a pub crawl around the self service pumps. Its a haven for hoodlums, and completely unnecessary to have so many bars. A shame for people who don't want to participate as there's nowhere to sit, hence why the area around WHSmith at the bottom of the escalator is always rammed with folk preferring to sit on the floor over being in the lounge.
Unfortunately this is up to the airlines to deal with, whilst the airport faces no backlash, as mentioned by HMB earlier. Its clear that the target is as many ALC/PMI/IBZ as possible as that's where the money is, and since the airport as good as closes down over winter, it has to be double money between May-Sept.
NCL I'm sure are happy with the news, and would much prefer this than more business oriented flights where pax tend to spend less £ in the terminal. What's better than a plane load of stags arriving at the airport 5 hours early, having a few pints in the check-in hall till the desk opens, then heading through security and into the Bigg Market...sorry, the departure lounge, for a pub crawl around the self service pumps. Its a haven for hoodlums, and completely unnecessary to have so many bars. A shame for people who don't want to participate as there's nowhere to sit, hence why the area around WHSmith at the bottom of the escalator is always rammed with folk preferring to sit on the floor over being in the lounge.
Unfortunately this is up to the airlines to deal with, whilst the airport faces no backlash, as mentioned by HMB earlier. Its clear that the target is as many ALC/PMI/IBZ as possible as that's where the money is, and since the airport as good as closes down over winter, it has to be double money between May-Sept.
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Oh don't worry it's not airlines like EZY and FR where I'm thinking I'll start out, it's airlines like Wizz, or more realistically Air Asia, Lion, Nok etc. And to be honest I can't wait to get out of the UK - too much uncertainty. Yes I would aspire to work for EK, but I realise it might never happen, but it's still a hell of a lot more likely than a job based at NCL
It is still investment into Newcastle, the plane could have just as easily gone somewhere else. I very much doubt Ryanair got the huge discounts on airport services that they usually demand (hence why it took so long to get them) so they still have to pay that. Spain and Portugal are booming right now, so it's good timing.
Added to this the fact that, arguably, it increases efficiency of the workers at the airport, the FR flights come in after all the based A/C have left, so they now have something to do when in the past it was much quieter. They also stimulate more winter demand because of the flight price, cheaper than the competition.
This £20 returns business is silly, I mentioned that I would like to see them to London if FR did it, as lead in fares. I obviously don't want to see £20 returns to Tenerife in the high season.
Yes, of course I'd rather see Ryanair base some frames... But that aint gonna happen anymore I don't think
It is still investment into Newcastle, the plane could have just as easily gone somewhere else. I very much doubt Ryanair got the huge discounts on airport services that they usually demand (hence why it took so long to get them) so they still have to pay that. Spain and Portugal are booming right now, so it's good timing.
Added to this the fact that, arguably, it increases efficiency of the workers at the airport, the FR flights come in after all the based A/C have left, so they now have something to do when in the past it was much quieter. They also stimulate more winter demand because of the flight price, cheaper than the competition.
This £20 returns business is silly, I mentioned that I would like to see them to London if FR did it, as lead in fares. I obviously don't want to see £20 returns to Tenerife in the high season.
Yes, of course I'd rather see Ryanair base some frames... But that aint gonna happen anymore I don't think
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Yes we all welcome additional traffic. However is the main point not that if the non based aircraft, due to over capacity, leads to the removal of one or more based aircraft then there will be lower income/demand for the airport and services in terms of parking, catering engineering etc.
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the FR flights come in after all the based A/C have left,
It'd Probably be difficult to accommodate many more o/night based a/c wanting a 6-7am departure for a full day utilisation of eqpt.
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The two strongest airlines without a shadow of a doubt up here are Jet2 and Thomson. Together they have made massive investment in NCL, supporting the local economy and alike. You can't possibly say that RYR ops, in from foreign bases, with foreign crews and frames is going to contribute positively to the local economy. It isn't. As to whether it will drive away the airlines - maybe a 1 frame reduction from TCX, and EZY shutting shop. TOM and LS are strong enough to fight this out. At the end of the day, passengers do have loyalty to airlines, of which is earned from positive experiences, good flight times, and friendly customer service.
All the major high streets/shopping centers still have travel agents, something which is clearly still the most popular method of booking with our demographic. Hays and Dawsons both have bonds with Jet2holidays, and have more money to make from this as opposed to selling everything separately. We aren't London. Most travelers aren't business; instead off on their annual summer weeks in the sun. Our TAs aren't going to support RYR like they do TOM and LS, and people certainly aren't going to adapt well to having foreign crews. Attacking routes that are already well served won't go down well at all (and don't quote me on BHX - its a big jump, and I'm sceptical of its success).
All the major high streets/shopping centers still have travel agents, something which is clearly still the most popular method of booking with our demographic. Hays and Dawsons both have bonds with Jet2holidays, and have more money to make from this as opposed to selling everything separately. We aren't London. Most travelers aren't business; instead off on their annual summer weeks in the sun. Our TAs aren't going to support RYR like they do TOM and LS, and people certainly aren't going to adapt well to having foreign crews. Attacking routes that are already well served won't go down well at all (and don't quote me on BHX - its a big jump, and I'm sceptical of its success).
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Jet2738 - EZ had a seven aircraft base here. They have ben a three aircract base (same size as Thomson) for six years now and are (or were until very recently) NCLs biggest airline in terms of passenger numbers. Let's keep things realistic. EZ carry more than LS or BY and even if they no longer do they are certainly a major player here. To deny that would be foolish. Yes BY send in the *occasional* 787 from another base, but EZ fly aircraft from other bases through NCL. Most (except TCX) have fairly sensible flight times so LS are no different to the others. In fact some of the major TAs and even Thomson are buying seats on EZ aircraft offering an almost identical service (just less blue and more orange) than Thomson airways. However I completely agree with your stance on local investment. EZ also fly a lot more substantial winter program than the others.
EK777NCL - Thats great that you're aiming so high (!) with Nok, AirAsia and Wizzair. We'll just let the others suffer. As a child (your words) you may resent the UK like I did when i was growing up but once you see the world and you see that compared to some places we have it really good here you'll LONG to come back from the sand pit. Only you'll not have anywhere to go. I urge you to take a look at the Middle East forums for you to realise that many people there are deeply unhappy. And posting that publically.
EK777NCL - Thats great that you're aiming so high (!) with Nok, AirAsia and Wizzair. We'll just let the others suffer. As a child (your words) you may resent the UK like I did when i was growing up but once you see the world and you see that compared to some places we have it really good here you'll LONG to come back from the sand pit. Only you'll not have anywhere to go. I urge you to take a look at the Middle East forums for you to realise that many people there are deeply unhappy. And posting that publically.
Our TAs aren't going to support RYR like they do TOM and LS, and people certainly aren't going to adapt well to having foreign crews. Attacking routes that are already well served won't go down well at all (and don't quote me on BHX - its a big jump, and I'm sceptical of its success).
As for the Jet2 BHX base, I share your scepticism.
Got to agree with HMB again - LS and TOM are very quiet during the winter, so to say they are 2 strongest is nonsense (in fact, is TCX not on a par with TOM?).
I've noticed no loyalty in terms of airlines - people pick and chose depending on what suits, and when booking themselves it's not unknown to be going out on one and back on another.
Getting back to the original point, the concern is not about sustainable expansion but about whether non-based additional capacity is going to lead to a reduction from the based operators, which would have an impact which would outweigh any benefits
I've noticed no loyalty in terms of airlines - people pick and chose depending on what suits, and when booking themselves it's not unknown to be going out on one and back on another.
Getting back to the original point, the concern is not about sustainable expansion but about whether non-based additional capacity is going to lead to a reduction from the based operators, which would have an impact which would outweigh any benefits