Kiss Air
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this is a posting from T/A
Regarding VIKING/KISS I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news but it was without doubt (VIKING) are the worse bit of public transport that they have ever used. She said the plane was grotty, the toilets smelt like a urinal and in the pocket of the seat infront of one of them was a used sick bag.
The return flight had very little food as it had been consumed by the outward passengers. They had to stop for crew change and fuel in Athens that added 2 hours to journey. They had a fire on board, the cooker overheated and had to be extinguished.My advice to you would be to find out if you have to stop in Athens as they weren't told about this.
Regarding VIKING/KISS I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news but it was without doubt (VIKING) are the worse bit of public transport that they have ever used. She said the plane was grotty, the toilets smelt like a urinal and in the pocket of the seat infront of one of them was a used sick bag.
The return flight had very little food as it had been consumed by the outward passengers. They had to stop for crew change and fuel in Athens that added 2 hours to journey. They had a fire on board, the cooker overheated and had to be extinguished.My advice to you would be to find out if you have to stop in Athens as they weren't told about this.
Last edited by loobysue; 30th Oct 2008 at 18:01.
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Well I find that interesting especially as Kiss doesnt start operating flights until 2009.
I can understand the hurt of some people on this thread but let me put it another way. If you ran your own business and it failed and you wanted to start up again would you want people to support you - of course you would.
We have Kiss as a supplier - I have not yet had an enquiry where I could use them or even price with them but at the end of the day it is the consumers choice as to whether or not they are used and if they are competitive on price. Today is a very price driven market in the travel industry and on the routes they have chosen they have a chance to be succesful.
I dont have an opinion on whether or not it is right what has happened - Im sad to have seen XL go but day flights on the Cyprus and Turkey routes will be snapped up if the price is right as people are not overly keen on the night flights.
I can understand the hurt of some people on this thread but let me put it another way. If you ran your own business and it failed and you wanted to start up again would you want people to support you - of course you would.
We have Kiss as a supplier - I have not yet had an enquiry where I could use them or even price with them but at the end of the day it is the consumers choice as to whether or not they are used and if they are competitive on price. Today is a very price driven market in the travel industry and on the routes they have chosen they have a chance to be succesful.
I dont have an opinion on whether or not it is right what has happened - Im sad to have seen XL go but day flights on the Cyprus and Turkey routes will be snapped up if the price is right as people are not overly keen on the night flights.
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Well in that case it will still have been on the MD83 as the new 737-800s dont arrive until the end of the year. Now I am no expert on flying distances (apart from being able to tell how long a flight will take) however I would imagine this is a long flight for an MD83 to take.
This is in no way excusing the toilet, food or sick bag.
However with all due respect loobysue - the information you have posted is from Tripadvisor on a post which you have responded to and on there it certainly doesnt seem like a daughter and a friend of yours - in fact it seems like you hardly know them.
By all means if you have a valid complaint then air it - but dont go stealing others.
On the other hand, I think your petition is a worthwhile cause and I have signed up.
This is in no way excusing the toilet, food or sick bag.
However with all due respect loobysue - the information you have posted is from Tripadvisor on a post which you have responded to and on there it certainly doesnt seem like a daughter and a friend of yours - in fact it seems like you hardly know them.
By all means if you have a valid complaint then air it - but dont go stealing others.
On the other hand, I think your petition is a worthwhile cause and I have signed up.
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I am always interested to see what people have to reveal about this operation and have passed the point where anything would surprise me. I am guessing that the next bit of interest will come in the XL Administrator's Report which is due out on 7 November. It will be fascinating to see if Kroll have managed to unravel the tangled web of deals between XL and Meridian.
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Yes I had a very nice letter form Kroll introducing themselves as the official administrators...........
..and basically saying you are owed monies from Xl but are getting
all..
oh joy
..and basically saying you are owed monies from Xl but are getting
all..oh joy
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So far Krolls decisions have been:
Choccy Digestives for elevenses and
probably that nice little italian for lunch and pino grigio
the quest continues.................................................
Choccy Digestives for elevenses and
probably that nice little italian for lunch and pino grigio
the quest continues.................................................
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Wyatt's brother joins Kiss parent
The brother of former XL boss Phil Wyatt has become a director of Meridian Aviation, the company behind new seat-only operator Kiss Flights.
Jim Wyatt, who was appointed a director on October 28, insisted that despite the family link his brother was not involved in Kiss, a trading name of Meridian.
He hit back at industry speculation that it was established as a “parachute operation” for his brother. “I know what people say but I know the facts and he is not involved,” he said.
“He is my brother and he always will be. Phil is not involved in Kiss or Meridian and that’s it.”
Jim Wyatt was the founder in 1994 of Sabre Airways, which became Excel and later XL Airways. He is also a director of aircraft leasing business Ace Leasing.
He said he became involved with Meridian because of his 30 years’ experience and because he had previously worked with Andre Cachia, another Meridian director.
According to Meridian’s accounts for the year to the end of March 2008, Cachia and director Graham Rolph, Phil Wyatt’s brother-in-law, were paid a total of £2.8 million. (TTG October 24).
Meanwhile, an official report into the collapse of XL has been delayed by a month after administrators Kroll asked for more time. It said the case was complex as it involved 350,000 creditors.
The administrators’ report was due on November 7, but Kroll has been given High Court permission to put it back to December 4.
Once the report is released, it will be followed by a creditors’ meeting on December 18.
Wyatt's brother joins Kiss parent - Travel Trade Gazette
Jim Wyatt, who was appointed a director on October 28, insisted that despite the family link his brother was not involved in Kiss, a trading name of Meridian.
He hit back at industry speculation that it was established as a “parachute operation” for his brother. “I know what people say but I know the facts and he is not involved,” he said.
“He is my brother and he always will be. Phil is not involved in Kiss or Meridian and that’s it.”
Jim Wyatt was the founder in 1994 of Sabre Airways, which became Excel and later XL Airways. He is also a director of aircraft leasing business Ace Leasing.
He said he became involved with Meridian because of his 30 years’ experience and because he had previously worked with Andre Cachia, another Meridian director.
According to Meridian’s accounts for the year to the end of March 2008, Cachia and director Graham Rolph, Phil Wyatt’s brother-in-law, were paid a total of £2.8 million. (TTG October 24).
Meanwhile, an official report into the collapse of XL has been delayed by a month after administrators Kroll asked for more time. It said the case was complex as it involved 350,000 creditors.
The administrators’ report was due on November 7, but Kroll has been given High Court permission to put it back to December 4.
Once the report is released, it will be followed by a creditors’ meeting on December 18.
Wyatt's brother joins Kiss parent - Travel Trade Gazette
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Well both Wyatt brothers have allways been in aviation and no doubt will continue to. They probably have more contacts than the Royal family.
Anyway, anybody know the latest on Viking, when are the 737's going into operation. Seats are on sale now for next year and i hope they do well.
Many have criticised them but aren't there also 2 other projects underway to make up for the loss of XL. Post in the Travel Weekly or TTG say that "project james" headed by Jonathan Hinkles is planned and also a guy called Garry Farley who wants to set up "all europe".
Out of the three planned i have most faith in Kiss Flights and "project james" that all will go well. the 3rd, we shall see.
Anyway, anybody know the latest on Viking, when are the 737's going into operation. Seats are on sale now for next year and i hope they do well.
Many have criticised them but aren't there also 2 other projects underway to make up for the loss of XL. Post in the Travel Weekly or TTG say that "project james" headed by Jonathan Hinkles is planned and also a guy called Garry Farley who wants to set up "all europe".
Out of the three planned i have most faith in Kiss Flights and "project james" that all will go well. the 3rd, we shall see.
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Do us a favour
if they just quietly set up and got on with it, I think people would leave it alone but the constant denial and trying to think they are smarter than everyone else is winding people up. I posted these links before but this time I have added a few more pointers so everyone gets it.
http://www.airlineinfo.com/ostdocket2008/ost080062.html
and from that website, the following information:
Three entities hold more than a 5% interest in XL Holdings. Pilot Investors Ltd owns 62.60% of XL Holdings. Pilot Investors Ltd is wholly owned by Malcolm Grumbridge, a UK citizen. Phil Wyatt, a UK citizen, owns 24.59% of XL Holdings and also holds a power of attorney over Pilot Investors Lid's voting rights in XL Holdings. FIDECS, an employee benefit trust established for the benefit of certain individuals each of whom is part of the management of XL Airways UK and each of whom is a UK citizen, owns 5.74% of XL Holdings. No other shareholders hold more than 5% of XL Holdings
PUG 6 LIMITED - Companies House Reports and Documents
reproduced below is the lookup for that company
Company No: 05583202
Company Address (as per Companies House):
PUG 6 LIMITED
C/O M C Grumbridge
The Hogarth Group
1A Airedale Avenue
LONDON
W 4 2NW
--------------------------------
Conclusion. XL, and inextricably PW are linked to MG, who as well as being majority shareholder in pilot investors, at the same time set up Kiss flights.
Now stop all the denial crap
http://www.airlineinfo.com/ostdocket2008/ost080062.html
and from that website, the following information:
Three entities hold more than a 5% interest in XL Holdings. Pilot Investors Ltd owns 62.60% of XL Holdings. Pilot Investors Ltd is wholly owned by Malcolm Grumbridge, a UK citizen. Phil Wyatt, a UK citizen, owns 24.59% of XL Holdings and also holds a power of attorney over Pilot Investors Lid's voting rights in XL Holdings. FIDECS, an employee benefit trust established for the benefit of certain individuals each of whom is part of the management of XL Airways UK and each of whom is a UK citizen, owns 5.74% of XL Holdings. No other shareholders hold more than 5% of XL Holdings
PUG 6 LIMITED - Companies House Reports and Documents
reproduced below is the lookup for that company
Company No: 05583202
Company Address (as per Companies House):
PUG 6 LIMITED
C/O M C Grumbridge
The Hogarth Group
1A Airedale Avenue
LONDON
W 4 2NW
--------------------------------
Conclusion. XL, and inextricably PW are linked to MG, who as well as being majority shareholder in pilot investors, at the same time set up Kiss flights.
Now stop all the denial crap
Last edited by just_registered; 16th Nov 2008 at 17:38.
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you are right JUST REGISTERED, It must be a very profitable set up to look after so many investors /directors!, M.Grumbridge is a solicitor with lots of ownership of different companies.....
Last edited by wings1950; 18th Nov 2008 at 05:43.
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wings1950
Just heard that Malcolm Grumbridge and Jim Wyatt owns a company that has 50% of the ownership of Viking Airlines. So really - Phil Wyatt is really not involved, but only if MG is the front man for Phil ? What you think ?
Just heard that Malcolm Grumbridge and Jim Wyatt owns a company that has 50% of the ownership of Viking Airlines. So really - Phil Wyatt is really not involved, but only if MG is the front man for Phil ? What you think ?
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Exclusive Phil Wyatt interview - part 2
Thursday, December 18, 2008
Lucy Huxley
Last week, Phil Wyatt, the man at the helm of the collapsed XL Leisure Group, revealed how things started to unravel this summer for the UK’s third-largest tour operator.
In this compelling sequel to his first interview since the group went bust, Wyatt reveals how within hours of striking what he thought was a rescue deal, conversations were, unbeknown to him, taking place which he believes sealed XL’s fate.
Rescue thwarted
As TTG revealed last week, Wyatt had held talks with the two Icelandic banks behind the group, Landsbanki and Straumur Investment Bank, about a refinancing plan.
This would have seen XL and other charter airlines and operators merge under a venture called Phoenix Wings.
That meeting had broken down on August 14 mainly because the banks could not come to an agreement on how the debt would be financed. But although they did not want to do the Phoenix Wings deal, they said they would back XL as a business.
Wyatt flew back to Crete, where he had been on holiday with his family, with mixed feelings. He knew the deal meant he would lose his £36 million shareholding in XL, but at least he felt the business would be saved – or so he thought.
Financial meltdown
Unfortunately, at that time, the financial markets were getting more desperate by the day and Wyatt said Straumur was eager to get additional guarantees backing its credit revolver.
“When arriving back in Crete, I learned that Straumur had met with Barclays, XL’s bankers, without any of the XL directors, to try to negotiate a future solution to XL’s fuel hedging instruments, provided by Barclays.
“In essence, the result of that meeting was that Barclays got really nervous and closed down these instruments, crystallising an immediate loss of $42 million for XL.
"As a result, Barclays froze all of XL’s accounts,” he said.
“Suddenly, things were totally out of order. XL couldn’t even pay its direct operating bills, even though the accounts had more than sufficient funds,” he revealed.
“At that point, XL could not trade without support from its lending group. Straumur continued to provide minimal credits to keep the business running and by doing so, it succeeded in forcing the XL board to give security over XL Germany and XL France.
“Without the panic situation that was created, I believe we could have sold our assets or raised new securities.”
Wyatt claimed that XL France and XL Germany were debt-free and had no registered charges, and that XL France alone had recently been valued at between €70 million and €110 million.
“If we had sold those two assets in an orderly market, we would have covered the majority, if not all, of our debts,” he said.
“In July we had tested the market with a short teaser on XL France. This was carried out by an investment bank and we received positive replies from Thomas Cook and Tui.
“Unfortunately, we were so confident of the banks refinancing XL that we did not take this process any further. In hindsight, this was a mistake,” he admitted.
“In addition, Virgin was very keen to buy Travel City Direct. A deal was still being discussed days prior to the company’s failure.”
Wyatt added: “I understand Virgin has concluded a deal with [the administrators] for the company name and data, so I assume Travel City Direct will trade again under the Virgin umbrella at some point in time.
“XL needed between £60 million and £70 million to see it through the winter and with the huge drop in fuel price, the requirement would have been reduced.”
Clock ticking
“On September 9, we met with the lender group in the afternoon, but by 20.30 they confirmed they weren’t going to back the business in cash terms,” he recalled.
“The following morning, Eimskip announced that it would be prepared to write off the $280 million it had guaranteed. Had we known this seven days earlier, it’s easy to assume things would have ended differently.
“It is most likely we would have sold XL for a cash injection only. After all, XL France alone was worth in excess of this, let alone the other brands XL owned. We simply ran out of time.”
During this period the XL board met every day, sometimes twice, Wyatt revealed.
“Every step was carefully evaluated and decided with advice from our legal team. On the evening of the 9th, the board requested that all customer deposits be ring-fenced in a special account and not used for operational expenses.
“That night [September 10] I didn’t sleep.
"The entire team carried on for 24 hours trying to get a deal done. The next night was also horrendous. At that point, we had come to realise that hope was running out. And on top of that, we really didn’t want XL to fail on 9/11.”
Wyatt explained that when all hope was gone, the XL board and its legal team planned for XL to cease operations at 2am on Friday September 12, when all aircraft would be in the UK or in the air en route home, causing minimum disruption.
“At 1am, I sent an email to all my staff and told them all that had happened and how we’d done everything we could,” recounted Wyatt, tears welling up in his eyes at the memory.
Regaining his composure, he continued: “I went home and tried to get some sleep, but had to be up at 5am and back at the Gatwick Hilton for the press conference. I thought about having my say there, but didn’t.
“Those tears I cried up on that stage weren’t crocodile tears: they were real. Afterwards, I went back to the office. It was very emotional. Some people wanted to hit me and some wanted to kiss me. My daughter and niece were two of many made redundant on that day.
“I got my bag and went home to my wife.”
Mistakes
“If I’ve made mistakes it’s that I should never have got someone else in to run a business I was a majority shareholder in.
“I should have encouraged Peter Owen to step down from Silverjet, as no one can be 100% focused on one job while having two roles.
“And I should have got corporate refinancing experts like International Rescue in to help. They could have saved XL.
“It should never have gone belly up. Due to very bizarre outside conditions, what happened, happened. The whole thing was illogical, believe me, and I want people to know this.”
Wyatt had nothing but praise for the CAA.
“They could not have been more supportive. They really worked with us to try to save the business. I was also delighted that [the divisions in] Germany and France, and the 750 staff who work in those two businesses, were saved. Both were really cash positive.”
Kiss Flights
Wyatt was determined to put a lid on the rumour that he was behind Kiss Flights and that it had been set up as a “parachute” business to drop into when he knew XL was in trouble.
“I do drive a car with the number plate K155 XLA. It just means ‘I love XL Airways’, nothing else,” Wyatt insisted. “I do love the name Kiss, but Kiss Flights is nothing to do with me.”
Wyatt was also keen to defend his fellow colleagues’ reputations.
“When people have a go at individuals like Paul Moss [former Freedom Flights managing director], I want them to realise that these people lost a lot of money too,” he added.
“I want to make sure staff at XL and the likes of Mike Greenacre [the managing director of The Co-operative Travel who has been publicly critical of the XL situation], are aware that Paul and the rest of the management team who had shares in XL all lost a personal fortune.
“In total, the management owned over a third of the company and lost over £100 million. I personally lost over £36 million,” said Wyatt.
“The doubters have got to stop thinking that this was some machiavellian plan.”
• Industry welcomes CAA payout action (15 Dec 2008)
• CAA to pay non-Atol XL claimants (12 Dec 2008)
• Collapse: 'Most challenging airlift ever' (12 Sep 2008)
• XL Leisure Group records £24m loss (12 Jun 2008)
Your Comment
Comment on this Story
1 Response to this Story
1. Posted by John Smith, On 20/12/2008 10:33
It would have been nice to receive this email sent to "all staff". I didn't get any warning, nor did any other pilots I spoke to.
The routes and aircraft to be operated by Kiss Flights are very similar to XL's. It's almost uncanny.
A doubter.
Top
Thursday, December 18, 2008
Lucy Huxley
Last week, Phil Wyatt, the man at the helm of the collapsed XL Leisure Group, revealed how things started to unravel this summer for the UK’s third-largest tour operator.
In this compelling sequel to his first interview since the group went bust, Wyatt reveals how within hours of striking what he thought was a rescue deal, conversations were, unbeknown to him, taking place which he believes sealed XL’s fate.
Rescue thwarted
As TTG revealed last week, Wyatt had held talks with the two Icelandic banks behind the group, Landsbanki and Straumur Investment Bank, about a refinancing plan.
This would have seen XL and other charter airlines and operators merge under a venture called Phoenix Wings.
That meeting had broken down on August 14 mainly because the banks could not come to an agreement on how the debt would be financed. But although they did not want to do the Phoenix Wings deal, they said they would back XL as a business.
Wyatt flew back to Crete, where he had been on holiday with his family, with mixed feelings. He knew the deal meant he would lose his £36 million shareholding in XL, but at least he felt the business would be saved – or so he thought.
Financial meltdown
Unfortunately, at that time, the financial markets were getting more desperate by the day and Wyatt said Straumur was eager to get additional guarantees backing its credit revolver.
“When arriving back in Crete, I learned that Straumur had met with Barclays, XL’s bankers, without any of the XL directors, to try to negotiate a future solution to XL’s fuel hedging instruments, provided by Barclays.
“In essence, the result of that meeting was that Barclays got really nervous and closed down these instruments, crystallising an immediate loss of $42 million for XL.
"As a result, Barclays froze all of XL’s accounts,” he said.
“Suddenly, things were totally out of order. XL couldn’t even pay its direct operating bills, even though the accounts had more than sufficient funds,” he revealed.
“At that point, XL could not trade without support from its lending group. Straumur continued to provide minimal credits to keep the business running and by doing so, it succeeded in forcing the XL board to give security over XL Germany and XL France.
“Without the panic situation that was created, I believe we could have sold our assets or raised new securities.”
Wyatt claimed that XL France and XL Germany were debt-free and had no registered charges, and that XL France alone had recently been valued at between €70 million and €110 million.
“If we had sold those two assets in an orderly market, we would have covered the majority, if not all, of our debts,” he said.
“In July we had tested the market with a short teaser on XL France. This was carried out by an investment bank and we received positive replies from Thomas Cook and Tui.
“Unfortunately, we were so confident of the banks refinancing XL that we did not take this process any further. In hindsight, this was a mistake,” he admitted.
“In addition, Virgin was very keen to buy Travel City Direct. A deal was still being discussed days prior to the company’s failure.”
Wyatt added: “I understand Virgin has concluded a deal with [the administrators] for the company name and data, so I assume Travel City Direct will trade again under the Virgin umbrella at some point in time.
“XL needed between £60 million and £70 million to see it through the winter and with the huge drop in fuel price, the requirement would have been reduced.”
Clock ticking
“On September 9, we met with the lender group in the afternoon, but by 20.30 they confirmed they weren’t going to back the business in cash terms,” he recalled.
“The following morning, Eimskip announced that it would be prepared to write off the $280 million it had guaranteed. Had we known this seven days earlier, it’s easy to assume things would have ended differently.
“It is most likely we would have sold XL for a cash injection only. After all, XL France alone was worth in excess of this, let alone the other brands XL owned. We simply ran out of time.”
During this period the XL board met every day, sometimes twice, Wyatt revealed.
“Every step was carefully evaluated and decided with advice from our legal team. On the evening of the 9th, the board requested that all customer deposits be ring-fenced in a special account and not used for operational expenses.
“That night [September 10] I didn’t sleep.
"The entire team carried on for 24 hours trying to get a deal done. The next night was also horrendous. At that point, we had come to realise that hope was running out. And on top of that, we really didn’t want XL to fail on 9/11.”
Wyatt explained that when all hope was gone, the XL board and its legal team planned for XL to cease operations at 2am on Friday September 12, when all aircraft would be in the UK or in the air en route home, causing minimum disruption.
“At 1am, I sent an email to all my staff and told them all that had happened and how we’d done everything we could,” recounted Wyatt, tears welling up in his eyes at the memory.
Regaining his composure, he continued: “I went home and tried to get some sleep, but had to be up at 5am and back at the Gatwick Hilton for the press conference. I thought about having my say there, but didn’t.
“Those tears I cried up on that stage weren’t crocodile tears: they were real. Afterwards, I went back to the office. It was very emotional. Some people wanted to hit me and some wanted to kiss me. My daughter and niece were two of many made redundant on that day.
“I got my bag and went home to my wife.”
Mistakes
“If I’ve made mistakes it’s that I should never have got someone else in to run a business I was a majority shareholder in.
“I should have encouraged Peter Owen to step down from Silverjet, as no one can be 100% focused on one job while having two roles.
“And I should have got corporate refinancing experts like International Rescue in to help. They could have saved XL.
“It should never have gone belly up. Due to very bizarre outside conditions, what happened, happened. The whole thing was illogical, believe me, and I want people to know this.”
Wyatt had nothing but praise for the CAA.
“They could not have been more supportive. They really worked with us to try to save the business. I was also delighted that [the divisions in] Germany and France, and the 750 staff who work in those two businesses, were saved. Both were really cash positive.”
Kiss Flights
Wyatt was determined to put a lid on the rumour that he was behind Kiss Flights and that it had been set up as a “parachute” business to drop into when he knew XL was in trouble.
“I do drive a car with the number plate K155 XLA. It just means ‘I love XL Airways’, nothing else,” Wyatt insisted. “I do love the name Kiss, but Kiss Flights is nothing to do with me.”
Wyatt was also keen to defend his fellow colleagues’ reputations.
“When people have a go at individuals like Paul Moss [former Freedom Flights managing director], I want them to realise that these people lost a lot of money too,” he added.
“I want to make sure staff at XL and the likes of Mike Greenacre [the managing director of The Co-operative Travel who has been publicly critical of the XL situation], are aware that Paul and the rest of the management team who had shares in XL all lost a personal fortune.
“In total, the management owned over a third of the company and lost over £100 million. I personally lost over £36 million,” said Wyatt.
“The doubters have got to stop thinking that this was some machiavellian plan.”
• Industry welcomes CAA payout action (15 Dec 2008)
• CAA to pay non-Atol XL claimants (12 Dec 2008)
• Collapse: 'Most challenging airlift ever' (12 Sep 2008)
• XL Leisure Group records £24m loss (12 Jun 2008)
Your Comment
Comment on this Story
1 Response to this Story
1. Posted by John Smith, On 20/12/2008 10:33
It would have been nice to receive this email sent to "all staff". I didn't get any warning, nor did any other pilots I spoke to.
The routes and aircraft to be operated by Kiss Flights are very similar to XL's. It's almost uncanny.
A doubter.
Top
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This thread has gone as far as we are prepared to let it go and it is now closed.
Someone can start a new one but none of the above will be allowed to migrate to it.
AA&R Mods
Someone can start a new one but none of the above will be allowed to migrate to it.
AA&R Mods
